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Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:44 pm

Warscreamer wrote:Thanks mate!
I owe you a beer.

BTW is bear fixed in this release?


Yes Bear is fixed in this version. As near as I can tell, I hit an extra character when I was doing a copy/paste operation which is what was causing the crashes.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Jack » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:38 pm

I've recently swapped to this script and I'm having a few issues.

It seems to prioritize savage roar over rip. At the beginning of a fight it will cue savage roar before rip is up. Well into combat my CD timer will show 2 seconds left on rip and ovale is cueing up savage roar over the rip countdown I expect to see.

At the beginning of a fight it suggests rake two or three times in a row. I see its up and ignore it for about 10 seconds until it stabilizes out. Its kind of frustrating since at the beginning of fights is when you have pots/trinkets/berserk up and its requesting you to "burn" up energy unnecessarily.

I really like how well it works for target swapping back and forth, pick up a rotation without skipping a beat.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:04 pm

Jack wrote:I've recently swapped to this script and I'm having a few issues.

It seems to prioritize savage roar over rip. At the beginning of a fight it will cue savage roar before rip is up. Well into combat my CD timer will show 2 seconds left on rip and ovale is cueing up savage roar over the rip countdown I expect to see.

At the beginning of a fight it suggests rake two or three times in a row. I see its up and ignore it for about 10 seconds until it stabilizes out. Its kind of frustrating since at the beginning of fights is when you have pots/trinkets/berserk up and its requesting you to "burn" up energy unnecessarily.

I really like how well it works for target swapping back and forth, pick up a rotation without skipping a beat.

Any help would be appreciated.

Hi Jack.

I believe the requesting you use Rake twice at the start of the fight is due to Tigers Fury. The script will recomend you refresh Rake if it has less then 9 seconds and the TF buff is active. This is a DPS up and worth doing. I do see sometimes the SR being given priority over Rip when both are about to expire. But only if you have fewer then 5 combo points. If you hit 5 points the script will suggest Rip over SR.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:17 pm

The things you are seeing are intentional Jack. Every patch this expansion has shifted more of our output from DoTs to direct damage and as a result SR has a higher priority now than it did at the start of the expansion. Also what Tinder said about Rake.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:24 pm

Barboulis wrote:Is this something useful? Should I put in a feature request with Ovale author?
Imho it would be nice to have conditions for all/most the macro conditionals in Ovale,
all I did was add a simplified version of the group:party/raid macro conditional.


I am not sure just swapping Mangle for Shred would be sufficient for a solo script. Since the rotation is designed for boss fights, it really has very little to do with soloing.

Separate from that, your idea of requesting support for macro conditionals is a good idea. I certainly would not try to dissuade you from requesting the changes you are proposing in Ovale.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Yawning » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:07 pm

Leafkiller wrote:Yes Bear is fixed in this version. As near as I can tell, I hit an extra character when I was doing a copy/paste operation which is what was causing the crashes.


Did you pull in changes from Mew SVN? (http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid- ... ail?r=1047)
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:15 pm

Yawning wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:Yes Bear is fixed in this version. As near as I can tell, I hit an extra character when I was doing a copy/paste operation which is what was causing the crashes.


Did you pull in changes from Mew SVN? (http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid- ... ail?r=1047)


Not yet.

The bear fix was in reference to a bug in the script that caused Ovale to crash when you went bear form. I have not spent time on the script changes you did to keep Pulverize up so as to maximize the mitigation benefit of 2 piece T13 (restating all of that for the benefit of others who read this thread). Since you mentioned there is a significant loss of DPS by doing that, I was thinking of implementing it as an toggle option so people can switch between a mitigation and a DPS rotation.

On a related note, has anyone worked on the Bear script from the perspective of optimal DPS instead of optimal threat?

This one is going to be interesting to implement in Mew...
Code: Select all
if (lacerateStacks < 3 && pulverizeRemaining < (1.5 + 0.33) * (3 - lacerateStacks + 1) && rage >= status.getLacerateCost())
         return Action.LACERATE;

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby dksopp » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:41 am

wow THX, just tried your script and its holy amazing :D :D
Btw anyone had a problem of getting blinking icons while using scrolling (scroll the icon) option from ovale appearance?
tho it seems a problem of ovale instead of the script ~.~

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Dec 21, 2011 3:10 pm

I never use the scrolling option...

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby dak » Fri Dec 30, 2011 3:26 pm

What sorcery is this?

So awesome, thanks for all the work done here.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:17 pm

Hey Leaf, I know there have been a fair few questions from ferals about the script suggesting SR before Rip, which as you have said many times turns out to be a dps increase, but would it be possible for you to sim precisely how much of a loss it actually is for it to suggest Rip first? and possibly make an alternative option to suggest Rip first in the dropdown box or perhaps an alternative script?

I personally have used Rip over roar many times as I felt neccessary, but I think the majority of ferals would prefer to get Rip on first and then followup with a 1-2 cp roar. After all, who wants to be be peeling off a mob buffing ourself with sr, when we could have a Rip ticking!

Thanks,

~Arth~
"Many druids died to bring us this information"

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Yawning » Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:07 pm

Arthaei wrote:I personally have used Rip over roar many times as I felt neccessary, but I think the majority of ferals would prefer to get Rip on first and then followup with a 1-2 cp roar. After all, who wants to be be peeling off a mob buffing ourself with sr, when we could have a Rip ticking!


The majority of ferals are utterly terrible and suck at math as well.

If you are peeling off a mob with just SR up in the opener, you're leaving target during Berserk and have catastrophically failed at encounter execution. If you are peeling off a mob with just SR up outside of the opener, you have failed to adapt your play to the encounter's specifics.

Considering this tool is intended to suggest optimal practice (with some allowances for what's humanly possible), having it recommend something that's shit and awful seems like a terrible idea.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:50 pm

First off, making accusations and insulting the whole feral community makes no sense, might want to rethink that one. Secondly if you're saying it's good to be spending combo points on savage roar when moving off a mob onto another one instead of bleeding it up I think it would be you that fails at execution bigtime. Far from being 'shit' or 'awful' your response is pretty much both of those considering a lot of ferals that are using this script have been curious about this in the past. All I asked is a question, to which an answer would be nice... Aside from being a wonderful math guy who doesn't play the game anymore, if you've got nothing constructive to say in the future I would suggest saying nothing at all. ;)
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Foxlore » Thu Jan 12, 2012 4:52 pm

Arthaei wrote:First off, making accusations and insulting the whole feral community makes no sense, might want to rethink that one. Secondly if you're saying it's good to be spending combo points on savage roar when moving off a mob onto another one instead of bleeding it up I think it would be you that fails at execution bigtime. Far from being 'shit' or 'awful' your response is pretty much both of those considering a lot of ferals that are using this script have been curious about this in the past. All I asked is a question, to which an answer would be nice... Aside from being a wonderful math guy who doesn't play the game anymore, if you've got nothing constructive to say in the future I would suggest saying nothing at all. ;)


The script is designed to provide the best rotation, not the one you think is best. What Yawning said was very constructive, as well as being correct. Most of the feral community is terrible. Most of the playerbase is awful. Most does not mean all. Think about what you were asking.

"Hey, I know the script is providing the best information based on hours of theorycrafting and countless simulations, but how can I get it to suggest otherwise?" How is one of the core people responsible for all of that effort supposed to respond to that?

Ovale is a guide. Leafkiller's script is fantastic, and it will give the best suggestions based on the information it has. Sometimes you have to make your own decisions based on the encounter as well. There are plenty of people that play at a very high level sans rotation addons.

Thanks to Yawning and Leaf for all that they do.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:13 pm

In my current gear if I wait for Rip to be up before casting SR, my DPS in Mew goes from 42914 down to 42634. Given the size of the dps disparity, I am not going to put that into the script. Even if you only SR with 4 or fewer combo point when Rip is not up, it is still a small dps loss.

In 4.3, SR is more important than it used to be back in 4.0...

Edit: It does, however look like it is time to put desyncing back into the rotation (in other words, clipping SR if Rip and SR are coming off of cooldown at the same time). I need to spend some time optimizing the clipping, but just using the old conditional popped my profile up to 42947.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Yawning » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:44 pm

Arthaei wrote:First off, making accusations and insulting the whole feral community makes no sense, might want to rethink that one. Secondly if you're saying it's good to be spending combo points on savage roar when moving off a mob onto another one instead of bleeding it up I think it would be you that fails at execution bigtime. Far from being 'shit' or 'awful' your response is pretty much both of those considering a lot of ferals that are using this script have been curious about this in the past. All I asked is a question, to which an answer would be nice... Aside from being a wonderful math guy who doesn't play the game anymore, if you've got nothing constructive to say in the future I would suggest saying nothing at all. ;)


Why would I need to rethink it, it's true. If people were actually curious and cared, they would have done sims and seen things for themselves.

Ovale's script assumes 100% uptime on target. If you follow it blindly for encounters that are not like that you will get what you deserve. However I doubt most people would be able to do better by second guessing the script.

Leafkiller covered the tank and spank case. With a somewhat different profile here are basic numbers for things that are not tank and spank (involving time off target).

(With 410 gear over 600 +- 20% seconds)
60 sec on target, 5 sec of downtime, target swap: Baseline: 46817 dps Derpscript: 46653 dps
120 sec on target, 10 sec of downtime, target swap: Baseline: 46431 dps Derpscript: 46274 dps
90 sec on target, 31.5 off, 85 on, 31.5 off 85 on....: Baseline: 37639 dps Derpscript: 37425 dps

I can't be bothered to make up more scenarios to test. If people care about it they can.

TLDR: Holding off on SR unless Rip is up is also shit and awful in certain non-tank and spank fights.

Asking for a option that could/should be labeled as "Do Less Damage Most If Not All The Time Because It Feels Better Man" defeats the purpose of having a tool that can display an optimal priority list.

Leafkiller wrote:In my current gear if I wait for Rip to be up before casting SR, my DPS in Mew goes from 42914 down to 42634. Given the size of the dps disparity, I am not going to put that into the script. Even if you only SR with 4 or fewer combo point when Rip is not up, it is still a small dps loss.

In 4.3, SR is more important than it used to be back in 4.0...

Edit: It does, however look like it is time to put desyncing back into the rotation (in other words, clipping SR if Rip and SR are coming off of cooldown at the same time). I need to spend some time optimizing the clipping, but just using the old conditional popped my profile up to 42947.


You can probably also check the Rake/TF change you have in as long as you're sure it's DPS neutral at worst for gear points above normal FL gear.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Arthaei » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:09 pm

Leafkiller wrote:In my current gear if I wait for Rip to be up before casting SR, my DPS in Mew goes from 42914 down to 42634. Given the size of the dps disparity, I am not going to put that into the script. Even if you only SR with 4 or fewer combo point when Rip is not up, it is still a small dps loss.

In 4.3, SR is more important than it used to be back in 4.0...

Edit: It does, however look like it is time to put desyncing back into the rotation (in other words, clipping SR if Rip and SR are coming off of cooldown at the same time). I need to spend some time optimizing the clipping, but just using the old conditional popped my profile up to 42947.


Cheers Leaf.
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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:48 pm

Yawning wrote:You can probably also check the Rake/TF change you have in as long as you're sure it's DPS neutral at worst for gear points above normal FL gear.


Done. The hard part is that one of the Rake changes is not something I can currently model in Ovale. I also put in new code to desync Sr and Rip. It turns out that it works best when the window is unbalanced - and the window is 6+ seconds now compared to the 3 that was in the left over desync code that was commented out.

Now I have to implement these changes in Ovale*...

* Edit: I can only implement 2 of the 3 changes in Ovale as I currently have no way to determine that a Rake was cast during TF other than by checking how long until it expires. Something I will have to ask Sidoine about.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:58 pm

Arthaei wrote: Secondly if you're saying it's good to be spending combo points on savage roar when moving off a mob onto another one instead of bleeding it up I think it would be you that fails at execution bigtime.


To paraphrase Tangedyn when he was referring to Yawning's play as a cat, he said something about Yawning being a "beast."

Putting aside anything that could lead to more drama, your assertion that you should bleed up a mob rather than refreshing SR is not completely accurate. What if the mob died and you had combo points let over? What if you have less than 5 combo points up on a mob and the add is *really important*? What if Rip still has a lot of time left to run? What if the mob is going to become invulnerable while the add is up and the DoT will be wasted? Granted there are times where you will want to put up a bleed, but there are also many times where other things such as FB or SR are appropriate.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:53 am

4.3.7.3 Posted.

Updated Ravage! logic, increased window to refresh Rip with FB in BitW window, removed Alysrazor air phase code, updated the Rip/TF sync code and added in SR/Rip desync code.


I had to implement SR/Sip desyncing slightly different than in Mew, but the dps difference is trivial. I plan to ask Sidoine about the issues I encountered trying to make it work the way I wrote it in the Mew script.

With the new Rip/SR desyncing code, the rotation feels better to me than it did before. The major thrust of this release is to help with Rip uptimes as that seemed problematic in low fps situations the way the rotation was before. Fortunately, I was able to find changes that simmed as either dps neutral or dps increases that should help with Rip uptime.

As always, please provide provide feedback on the new script.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Jan 13, 2012 2:02 pm

4.3.7.4 Posted.
Leafkiller wrote:I had to implement SR/Sip desyncing slightly different than in Mew, but the dps difference is trivial.


I made a slight change to the SR/Rip desync code that makes it functionally equivalent to Mew.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby adianar » Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:36 pm

Leaf,
I truly appreciate your ability to consistently synthesize questions, process information change and communicate it to the people. We are truly lucky to have all of you, Allaron, Yawning, Qbear and others included to guide us, but you continue to further take the "smart people information" and communicate it to us in a clear, reasonable fashion. I'm amazed at your tireless ability to field the redundant questions along with the foolish ones and ALWAYS maintain a air of respect.

We are very lucky kitties. I would buy all of you a beer if i could. Thank you for the time you spend..

Adi

PS I was trying to help one of our shammies who really digs the game too and he had nothing to fall back on but EJ. It was at that moment that I realized I've taken this somewhat for granted and the other classes DON"T have this caliber of support secretly behind them....

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Hinalover » Sat Jan 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Leaf was there any changes being made to the bear part of the script. I know shortly after that discussion on theIncBear thread Yawning did change the bear module a bit. Wasn't sure if you were going to change that in this script or not.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:42 pm

Hinalover wrote:Leaf was there any changes being made to the bear part of the script. I know shortly after that discussion on theIncBear thread Yawning did change the bear module a bit. Wasn't sure if you were going to change that in this script or not.


Nope. While there is a rotation that will help take advantage of the 2 piece set bonus, it comes a cost - a significant drop in bear dps. Basically, it is simply focused on optimizing Pulverize uptime. At least for me and the content I sometimes offtank, survivability is not an issue while dps is.

If you want to take a crack at creating a Pulverize bear rotation, it would be easy to add it in as an option for someone.

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Re: Leafkiller's 4.3 Feral Ovale Script

Postby ShmooDude » Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:31 am

EDIT: Removed, see new post.
Last edited by ShmooDude on Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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