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Glyph of Savage Roar

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Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Bizzy » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:00 pm

I keep seeing debates about the value of GoTF and GoBL with Tier 13, I am curious why no one is simming with GoSR? It would appear that GoTF is not prefered with APS or the badge trinket and GoBL seem like it is wasted with 2 piece so why not GoSR? I just switched from Bear so i am not fully versed in all thing Kitty but this just made sense to me.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Konungr » Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:50 pm

Bizzy wrote:I keep seeing debates about the value of GoTF and GoBL with Tier 13, I am curious why no one is simming with GoSR? It would appear that GoTF is not prefered with APS or the badge trinket and GoBL seem like it is wasted with 2 piece so why not GoSR? I just switched from Bear so i am not fully versed in all thing Kitty but this just made sense to me.



There are no longer debates between GoTF and GoBL, GoBL is by far superior, even with 4T13 and no on-use trinkets. GoSR isn't simmed because there were no changes or tier bonuses this tier that would do anything to benefit it, which means its still our weakest glyph no matter what.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Bizzy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:17 am

Can you explain why GoBL is better? It doesnt make sense to have a longer rip that is getting refreshed by bite

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:36 am

Bizzy wrote:Can you explain why GoBL is better? It doesnt make sense to have a longer rip that is getting refreshed by bite


6 extra seconds on Rip means that you have more room to build up a full 5 CPs and maintain 95%+ uptimes on everything. A 16 second Rip means your window for maintaining uptime gets almost impossibly tight. Therefore, the 6 extra seconds provide a greater window to maximize DPS in. Since Glyph of Tiger's Fury means that 50% of your Rakes will no longer do 15% extra damage, the benefit of GoTF, outside T13 bonuses, is minimal. The 4T13 bonus that allowed a Free Ravage every ~27-30 seconds makes the glyph gain value, but you only get an extra free ravage every 4:30 minutes, which doesn't quite outweigh the benefit of having 40% Boss HP of Bloodletting.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Bizzy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:43 am

That makes sense thanks Konungur for the timely responses. So if the world were perfect not using GoBL and switching out for GoSR would be a theoretical dps increase but since there is human error and boss mechanics get in the way it makes it easier to keep uptime with GoBL therefore uping your dps? Looks like i was on the right track in my reasoning but not being realistic with my expectations of performance.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:47 am

Bizzy wrote:That makes sense thanks Konungur for the timely responses. So if the world were perfect not using GoBL and switching out for GoSR would be a theoretical dps increase but since there is human error and boss mechanics get in the way it makes it easier to keep uptime with GoBL therefore uping your dps? Looks like i was on the right track in my reasoning but not being realistic with my expectations of performance.



No, GoSR provides very little benefit, otherwise we would use it over GoBerserk. If we were at the Crit Cap, then GoTF would be a theoretical DPS increase over GoBL, but until we can garauntee that it won't take 5 Shreds/Mangles/Rakes to get to 5CP, it is better to be sure that GoBL will provide us a larger window to build enough CPs to maintain acceptable uptimes. The only reason GoBL was ever a possibility to get dropped from our set-up is that it would be of significantly less use for 60% of the fight this tier, but the other options just aren't strong enough to overtake it.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Bizzy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:57 am

Roger. I think u misunderstood what i was getting at and that is that if TF is a dps loss and BL is not used 60% of the fight that SR would be the only other glyph that would provide any sort of dps gain. Seeing as it is hard to get to 5 cp i understand that BL is dps increase that was just my line of thinking.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:00 am

Bizzy wrote:Roger. I think u misunderstood what i was getting at and that is that if TF is a dps loss and BL is not used 60% of the fight that SR would be the only other glyph that would provide any sort of dps gain. Seeing as it is hard to get to 5 cp i understand that BL is dps increase that was just my line of thinking.



TF isn't a DPS loss, its a gain, but not enough of one that it is better than the gain from BL. SR is a gain, but nowhere near as close as one as TF.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Bizzy » Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:39 am

Konungr wrote:
Bizzy wrote:Roger. I think u misunderstood what i was getting at and that is that if TF is a dps loss and BL is not used 60% of the fight that SR would be the only other glyph that would provide any sort of dps gain. Seeing as it is hard to get to 5 cp i understand that BL is dps increase that was just my line of thinking.



TF isn't a DPS loss, its a gain, but not enough of one that it is better than the gain from BL. SR is a gain, but nowhere near as close as one as TF.


So TF is a gain only with 4 piece right and no 1 min cd on use trinket. Thanks for baring with me i literally just switched from bear and am trying to get a thourogh (sp?) understanding of this whole kitty thing.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Konungr » Tue Dec 27, 2011 2:29 am

Bizzy wrote:
Konungr wrote:
Bizzy wrote:Roger. I think u misunderstood what i was getting at and that is that if TF is a dps loss and BL is not used 60% of the fight that SR would be the only other glyph that would provide any sort of dps gain. Seeing as it is hard to get to 5 cp i understand that BL is dps increase that was just my line of thinking.



TF isn't a DPS loss, its a gain, but not enough of one that it is better than the gain from BL. SR is a gain, but nowhere near as close as one as TF.


So TF is a gain only with 4 piece right and no 1 min cd on use trinket. Thanks for baring with me i literally just switched from bear and am trying to get a thourogh (sp?) understanding of this whole kitty thing.



Basically the Glyphs are as such in terms of DPS gain (Most > Least): Rip > Bloodletting > Berserk > Tiger's Fury > Savage Roar


Since 2T13 devalues Bloodletting and 4T13 increases the value of Tiger's Fury, it was a possibility that the lineup would look like this with full T13 bonuses: Rip > Berserk > Tiger's Fury > Bloodletting > Savage Roar.

But it turns out that the loss in GoBL value with 2T13 and the gain in GoTF value with 4T13 are still not enough to warrant a switch under the circumstances.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:13 pm

While the difference is small enough that I wouldn't necessarily be confident in this result, I will note that Mew (Dec 22 version) still rates TF generally above bloodletting in my own gear for the set of encounter durations {300,310,320,330,340}, with the advantage ranging (as duration varies) between +300 and -40 dps.

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Re: Glyph of Savage Roar

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:16 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:While the difference is small enough that I wouldn't necessarily be confident in this result, I will note that Mew (Dec 22 version) still rates TF generally above bloodletting in my own gear for the set of encounter durations {300,310,320,330,340}, with the advantage ranging (as duration varies) between +300 and -40 dps.


I just ran a sim with the top of tree mew using your toon from the armory on a 300 second (default) fight and TF is ahead of Bloodletting. Making the call on which one to use will be an interesting exercise.

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