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Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Face-rippin fun.

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Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby TheJinchuuriki » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:55 pm

Hi fluiddruid! Huge fan fairly excited for a competent feral community.

I would like to learn EXACTLY how to make the most of my blood in the water, and to do such I must know if/when refreshing rip can be a gain or loss in dps. I have established:

If you apply a rip w/ bonus agility(potion etc) and then refresh that rip with blood in the water the rip will receive your current attack-power versus the bonus agility the rip was originally applied with. This is also true for Tiger's Fury; if you apply a rip w/ Tiger's Fury then refresh the rip early w/ blood in the water the rip will be refreshed but lose the bonus%damage from TF.

With this simple observation one can quickly deduce that it is best to delay clipping a superior-rip with an inferior-rip (perhaps by pooling energy etc.)

My real wonderment:
If I applied a rip with TF+Kiril, Fury of Beasts+Potion of Tol'vir, etc; could such a potent rip be applied that it would be better to let the rip run its full course while shredding past 5cp instead of refreshing rip with ferocious bite?
If so, how much +agility would be needed to make such a rip cause the temporary change in rotation?


To answer this I think one would compare the dpE of shred vs 5point FB vs dps loss of clipping super-rip early, however I'm not sure how to best setup this comparison. Anyone willing to lend a paw?

Thanks TFD!

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Konungr » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:37 pm

I would also find this interesting, yesterday in the LFR I managed to get a wonderful miracle: Potion of Tol'Vir, 10 Stacks of Kiril, Kiroptyric Sigil, Full Raid Buffs (except for Flask and Food, didn't have those). I had just shy of 13k Agility and just over 44k Attack Power. If I remember correctly, I had 2 Rip Crit ticks that totalled just shy of 80k, but I can't seem to tear apart the logs just right.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/styi ... 100&e=1443

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Mykeela » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:46 pm

WTB Blood in the Water clipping the most powerful rip active :/

Edit: what I mean was refreshing a 1200 agi potion rip over the course of a fight with FBs if you dont let that rip fall off (if it does then my bad)

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Konungr » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:54 pm

Mykeela wrote:WTB Blood in the Water clipping the most powerful rip active :/

Edit: what I mean was refreshing a 1200 agi potion rip over the course of a fight with FBs if you dont let that rip fall off (if it does then my bad)



No, Every time you FB the game looks at your current Attack Power and Mastery and Damage Buffs, the only thing that stay from the original Rip is the number of Combo Points used.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Mykeela » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:59 pm

Yeah that's why I wish it wasn't the case :/

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby TheJinchuuriki » Tue Jan 03, 2012 8:32 pm

Bump! Looking for a kittymathmaster to smooth out this inquisition; let me know kitty-pros.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Rarge » Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:00 pm

Would a possible model be to think about everything in equivalent rip tick values.

For example, an average tick damage could be denoted as t.
Then you determine the value of a FB in a quantity of t. eg: 2t (arbitrary value used as an example)
Then, you want to find at which point:

11mt > 11t + 2t
m being a value representing the percentage increase of a super rip's tick over a normal rip's tick.
so the breakpoint would be m = 13/11

So the super rip would have to be doing ~19% (13/11 - 1) more damage than a normal rip to result in more damage than a rip + FB.

So I would suggest (please do not take this as the definite answer until it has been reviewed) That if your current rip is doing more than ~19% damage than the next rip, you should let it tick for as long as possible without capping energy. Although this doesn't consider you shredding whilst at full combo points (eg you just pool energy whilst the super rip is up) and assumes the next rip will go for it's full duration.

I will now go cower behind a rock as this maths and logic gets ripped apart by Konungr/LeafKiller/Yawning/QBear.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:59 am

This sort of problem is better tackled in a simulation than with Math. There are many secondary effects that result from rotation changes which are often missed when people apply napkin math to these sorts of problems.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby TheJinchuuriki » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:05 am

Leafkiller wrote:This sort of problem is better tackled in a simulation than with Math. There are many secondary effects that result from rotation changes which are often missed when people apply napkin math to these sorts of problems.


Does the sim actually make on-the-fly rotational changes based on the potency of rip?
If so Leafkiller can you provide results from one?

I like your suggestion Rarge, although I think it is important to note that the earliest we could FB/refresh rip would be at least 4 gcds after applying the rip, that being the minimal time to ramp to 5 CP and bite. Also be sure to note that while you are not dealing damage with bite in one situation you are instead dealing damage with shred.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:51 pm

TheJinchuuriki wrote:
Leafkiller wrote:This sort of problem is better tackled in a simulation than with Math. There are many secondary effects that result from rotation changes which are often missed when people apply napkin math to these sorts of problems.


Does the sim actually make on-the-fly rotational changes based on the potency of rip?
If so Leafkiller can you provide results from one?

I like your suggestion Rarge, although I think it is important to note that the earliest we could FB/refresh rip would be at least 4 gcds after applying the rip, that being the minimal time to ramp to 5 CP and bite. Also be sure to note that while you are not dealing damage with bite in one situation you are instead dealing damage with shred.


Someone would have to craft a script to test that. There might be the need for an extra hook or two from Yawning although it is already possible in Mew to know that a Rip was cast with TF, I don't think there is a call for other AP buffs.

I do not have the time to spend on this, so this is something you or someone else would need to do.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Paramount » Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:48 am

I have been tackling this issue vigorously lately along the lines of Leaf's suggestion, with the exception that I perform actual in-game testing rather than pure simulation. First I'd like to point out just one (of several) quick reason why you simply can't math this problem out.

To begin with, we all have slightly different gear sets, tuned differently with our reforges and enchants. We can't suppose "cookie cutter" levels of crit, haste and mastery or how they will reflect our CP gen and our energy regen. While my rip may tick 3 times before I am ready to bite, yours may tick 4 times and still others may tick 5. Toss in potential OoC procs and perhaps a tendency to run out/feral charge on CD, thus generating more burst combo points, and I could potentially fire off 2 FB's by the time you get one. While I'm sure that there is math which exists to handle variables to that degree, to get it right would require not only prodigious ability in the practical application of the math, but an intuition inherent only to those who need not bother with the math in the first place.

The approach I have decided to take with this issue is to choose four different reforge schemes and test each one under several different sets of damage-increasing conditions. The first time through I perform the test while FBiting at will, then I repeat the test while shredding past 5 CP and FBiting with < 3 seconds remaining on the "super" rips. For example, I start with a reforge scheme of Haste > Mastery > Crit, then I'll test both FB methods against Rips buffed by TF alone, then TF+KS, then TF+Kiril, then TF+KS+Kiril, etc. etc. All of my data consists of a minimum of 90 minutes of actual in game testing on target dummies under indentical circumstances.

What I hope to gain from this testing is to present all of the figures in table-form, not to definitively proclaim priorities or break points but rather as perhaps a catalyst of sorts in developing an intuition of my own. I've done this sort of thing before long ago when my mage was my main and the results were phenomenal. Having strong intuition relating to matters like these lends itself to natural motions based on instinct as opposed to deliberate motions that have been thought through, calculated and planned moments before.

When I'm finally finished gathering data and creating the table I'll post it here for evaluation by the community at large. There may be levels of insight that I have yet to consider or attempt to quantify.
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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Floofles » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:20 am

Rip ticks every 2, not 3 seconds.

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Re: Let's get complicated! Blood in the Water

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:49 am

But (if you have glyph of bloodletting) rip displays a false duration, and actually expires variously either 1 second before or 1 second after the displayed duration expires. <3 seconds is the proper time to refresh a fully extended rip if you don't want to gamble on getting the longer duration.

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