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Spine of Deathwing

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Sorcerer » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:28 am

Stenhaldi wrote:
Sorcerer wrote:Assuming 23sec / 1.5sec GCD = 15 (15,3) GCD available for DPS (14 if FF)

Some corrections
1) cat form abilities have a 1 second GCD
2) the tendon is exposed for 20 seconds (it's not targetable for the first 3 seconds of the cast)


1) just tested, thanks for correction.
2) Anyone tried macroed abilities like /target burning tendom /cast shred

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Konungr » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:59 am

Sorcerer wrote:
exkape wrote:5 cp rip doesnt tick more, it does more damage..... thats simple shit there


Virtually 4CP rip does tick more than 5CP if 5CP rip won't have enough time for all ticks. Simple shit there.

Anyway I had a mistake on my sheet regarding postponing ability queue due to TF triggering GCD but its not that case, I was mindblown but my question is still standing.

Ill get some sleep and look at possible scenarios on paper, couse becouse of so small DPS window from a really brief calc, 4CP rip 1 GCD sooner might be a DPS gain over 5CP GCD later and chance to tick 2 times more.
Going for another scenario, I have yet to do the math but opener Ravage + Shred + TF Rip if 4CP ( at 20sec left on burn) might be also a DPS gain as long as you dont energy starve later, ei during berserk.



I'm going to save you the trouble. The DPS lost by using 4 CPs instead of 5 is far worse than the DPS lost by 1-2 lost ticks from a 5CP Rip.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:28 pm

That's not true. It's equivalent to 1.6 lost ticks.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Konungr » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:52 pm

Stenhaldi wrote:That's not true. It's equivalent to 1.6 lost ticks.


I'm not sure how to achieved this random number of ticks lost (since you showed nothing), but I went ahead and tested myself. Removed all proc items from gear, no trinkets, no Kiril, static... hopped on a target dummy did 2 4CP Rips and 2 5CP Rips and recorded the damage on a notepad. (Mangle was up for full duration of full test.)

4CP Rip
Hit: 4565 Damage
Crit: 9405 Damage

5CP Rip
Hit: 5675 Damage
Crit: 11695 Damage

Given a 50% fixed Crit rate (about what I have in raid buffed outside of procs) and 12 ticks per Rip w/ Bloodletting, we can assume 6 Hits and 6 Crit for any given Rip.

6(4H + 4C) = X
6(4565 + 9405) = X
27390 + 56430 = 83820

6(5H + 5C) = Y
6(5675 + 11695)
34050 + 70170 = 104220

Y - X = Z
104220 - 83820 = 20400

20400 is approximately 3-4 Hits and 1-2 Crits from a 5CP Rip. (IOW: NOT worth using a 4CP Rip.)

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:29 pm

Rip ticks 8 times (base duration), so each tick is 1/8 damage. 4CP rip loses 1/5 damage. (1/5)/(1/8) = 1.6. This is an overestimate to begin with since (unless you get lucky with crits, or don't have to faerie fire) you probably won't even get a 4CP rip at full duration. I'm obviously ignoring glyph of bloodletting since you'll never fit more than 8 ticks.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Jqar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:37 pm

First fight in a while where its actually pro to stack ferals.
We run with 2 feral tanks and 1 warrior/pala/dk tank (depending on what tact we feel like doing).

I take care of mangle, the other feral takes care of FF and rake.
I also happen to be cursed with the 4set :( if not id easily go with 2set t12. But its really nice for the raid with 4set, use it every barrel roll by staying in bear form 15 secs ahead.
The other feral does not have 4set.
He is tanking because he got no experience as feral dps, if not id be the logical choice as tank. The other feral is tanking the amalgamation for the majority of the fight, but he is kiting the bloods in the last phase while im taking over the amalgamation tanking.
We are full energy with 20+ on SR before each burn.
We are not charging for the free Ravage! as its too hard to rely on, I also dont see it benefiting us too much either.

20sec burn:
Me:
Mangle, shred, TF(/zerk) rake, ravage!, rip, shred, shred, shred...
Other feral:
Rake, FF, shred, shred, TF(/zerk), shred, rake, rip, shred, shred, shred...

We shred until the last gcd before the add goes away, then we use FB to get rid of excess energy. For non-berserk burns we just do the same sequence but without Berserk. We use Berserk on the first, third and fifth burn, so that the other dps that benefit from an execute phase will be closer to it on the second, fourth and sixth burn.


His Rake can hit before my Mangle for 30% less dmg on the first tick, but the 30% lost on the first tick on rake is less than 20% lost on my shred if he were to use FF first instead of Rake and i were faster than him, meaning my shred could hit without there being a bleed already on the target. The other feral also pools up some energy after his Rake when he is using FF afterwards, he cant pool energy if hes using FF first as he is then already full energy. Also other Pro's and Con's either way makes me believe that the sequences above is optimal for this 2feral setup. Another reason he is applying mangle and not me is because i need to pick up more talents than him due to 4set and being dps most of the time but still having tank talents, so he got more talents to spare for Feral Aggression since his time as dps only revolves around the 20sec burn, and not the rest of the fight where we also need to have high dps.
The only thing im not sure about is how FF on the second gcd will affect the ret pala in our grp. Something to think about is that our gcd is 1 sec, a ret pala gcd is 1,5 so FF is guaranteed to be up for the ret pala's second ability. We save hero+pot for the fifth burn phase.
Glyphs(me): SR, berserk, Rip
Glyphs(other feral): Mangle, Berserk, Rip (he is tanking more than me, so mangle edges out SR longterm imo, even though im actually the one applying mangle during the burn, im also thinking that SR could be switched out with Berserk for this guy, seeing as he is at most getting 1 sec out of the berserk glyph)

I post this here hoping for someone to suggest something we could improve in the sequence and setup. Im not 100% sure what to reforge yet, but testing some different setups it seems that having a balanced reforge but favoring haste is the best, the other tank is favoring mastery since he is tanking more than me. Crit reforge seemed like shit, especially as we don't use FB until the last GCD available. What im most interested in is your thoughts on reforging for the 20 sec burst window, and how ignoring FB is a potential dps increase/loss, all FB seems to do is get me short on energy, rending me unable to spam something each gcd. We use Ferocious Bite at 5CPs during the fifth burn since we energy cap with hero (any recent theorycrafting on 4CP FBs?)

Please dont kill me if im doing something wrong, just brushed the dust off my feral for Spine HC, seeing as it benefits the raid more than my ele shaman.

This macro seems to do the trick to squeeze in as as many gcds as possible. As far as ive tested it, it will not do shit unless u have targeted something, and its trying to target the burning tendons, so u wont accidently use the trinket or an ability on the wrong target by spamming this, given that u are facing away from other mobs and facing directly towards where the Burning Tendon will be.
#showtooltip
/targetexact Burning Tendons
/stopmacro [noexists]
/startattack
/castsequence ...
/use Kiroptyric Sigil

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Konungr » Thu Jan 26, 2012 8:38 pm

Heroic Spine: 17 seconds of burst, what would be best DPS for those 17 seconds, assuming that after those 17 seconds the Tendon will erase all DoTs (not sure if it keeps them or wipes them like Ragnaros)

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 26, 2012 9:15 pm

You actually have 20 seconds (23 second cast - 3 seconds of "Can't target). As soon as the cast is done all dots fall off like Rag/Hagara.

Reforging/glyphs and rotation will likley depend on what your job is. I know a lot of guilds are using a Bear/Cat to help with adds but goes kitty for tendon burning. I ran some pure dps sims a few weeks ago to see what secondary stats come out on top. Haste won by about 125 dps, Crit second, and Mastery about 500 dps behind. In 20 seconds of burn the seperation of these numbers is 1-2 white attacks so pretty much go with what your job is (Mastery/Crit for Bear cat, Haste for pure cat). I will likely go through some sims in the next few weeks to see what I could come up with.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Fri Jan 27, 2012 5:07 am

Glyph rip and savage roar - no other glyph matters for tendons (but bloodletting may be convenient for the amalgamations). Get a savage roar up in advance, and feral charge a blood or corruption as the nuclear blast cast is nearly finished. Autoattack anything you can to try to trigger a clearcast. Make sure wrath of unchaining is fully stacked if you have it.

In a 25-player raid you want to open with faerie fire (if no one else is supplying it), as each second of downtime is worth ~20k damage (varies with raid composition). In a 10-player raid it might make more sense to spend energy first.

After that, mangle if necessary and then activate the valor trinket and rake. I've considered trying to save rake for TF, but it's virtually impossible to use TF in the first 5 seconds without wasting energy (at least while supplying FF), and if you apply rake after 5 seconds you lose a tick.

Next use the free ravage from the feral charge, as it will probably be expiring soon. After this I shred to 5 CP (if necessary) and rip, using TF if possible without wasting much energy - but it usually isn't. In some cases, especially with berserk available, it may be advantageous to use TF before rip (and perhaps rake) even if it wastes energy. Note that gaining the TF effect on rip or rake is worth less than half of a shred's damage. Therefore, you want to waste less than ~20 energy to get TF on rip and less than ~40 energy to get TF on both rip and rake (while also ensuring you don't lose a tick of rake). If berserk is available, however, energy you waste before it is active is only a little over half as valuable since you will finish the burn with berserk active (not exactly half because of ferocious bite's conversion). These energy figures are actually overestimates since they do not account for the value of combo points.

After the rip you simply want to use a shred/FB rotation for the rest of the burn, using TF (if you did not already), berserk (if available), and the TF ravage when convenient. There is no point in reapplying rake if you are not geared for mastery, since you will only gain one tick (plus the direct damage) and this is less damage than shred. However, if you are geared for mastery for an off-tank role then it may be worth reapplying rake, assuming you cast the first one within the first two seconds (otherwise you cannot fit an extra tick), and the best time to do this would be when TF is active.

If possible, you want to take advantage of ferocious bite's variable cost in order to finish the burn with exactly 0 energy. Note that with some quick prediction you can do this even if FB is not the last ability you use - this can be done, for example, by picking its energy cost such that you can exactly fit another shred afterward.

While supplying FF (but not mangle) I typically do ~2.5 million damage per tendon (two burns, one without berserk; no bloodlust or potion) - well, slightly less now that we kill them with time to spare.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Dysheki » Wed Feb 01, 2012 12:52 pm

Even if you have wrath of unchaining wouldn't it be better to dust off the old APS for better burst?

I mean, we're not talking about a huge advantage, but I would assume advantage nonetheless.
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:30 pm

Dysheki wrote:Even if you have wrath of unchaining wouldn't it be better to dust off the old APS for better burst?

I mean, we're not talking about a huge advantage, but I would assume advantage nonetheless.

Sigil is a better burst trinket then APS. You should be able to pick it up very easy.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Dysheki » Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:58 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
Dysheki wrote:Even if you have wrath of unchaining wouldn't it be better to dust off the old APS for better burst?

I mean, we're not talking about a huge advantage, but I would assume advantage nonetheless.

Sigil is a better burst trinket then APS. You should be able to pick it up very easy.


But . . . you can use TWO trinkets :-\
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Yes you can equip 2 trinkets at once, and yes you could equip Sigil and APS at the same time. However as the 2 share a cooldown you couldn't make use of the agility from both trinkets. Use Sigil, the haste is better then mastery for this fight and it has a better proc for the burst required on this fight.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:36 pm

Activating one trinket puts the other on cooldown for its duration.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Dysheki » Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:52 pm

K, thanks for clarifying. I knew they did that with the pvp trinkets but wasn't aware it happened with the pve trinkets. My whole thought process was you could use the two at the same time; I know that sigil is leaps and bounds above APS.
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:06 am

Also, if you use Kiril then you probably want to unequip/reequip it ~60 seconds before the next burn to reset the internal cooldown. If your guild is timing the burn with the grips (as was necessary before the nerf, but may not be necessary now), then this is fairly simple to predict as a typical time between grips is ~20 seconds (16 seconds, plus the time to break the grip, plus a small amount of random dead time when the corruption delays a cast by a second or so).

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Andolie » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:57 pm

With the nerfs does that reverse the Sigil vs APS results? Our group is prepping for it and I thought I'd get things in order now rather than later.
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:39 am

Still stick with Sigil.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Andolie » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:32 pm

That was what I had said but my officer wants me to use aps for progression since it should be off CD for each tendon to help with burst along with the glove tinker. I just couldn't justify a modest increase in burst for a larger overall hit.
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Mar 05, 2012 1:34 pm

While I was in for every attempt on Spine until this last week when my guild downed it, I never had an issue with Sigil being down when the tendon came available. If you guys are really killing the amalgs quicker then 1:30 you are actually hurting the whole raids damage output because a lot of other classes cooldowns will get out of sync as well.

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby p3lim » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Finally at this fight now, and so far I've gathered this:

I am the only one bringing mangle + FF, so I have to apply both at the start.
With Berserk up I do ~1.4m dmg on the tendon, without I do ~900k.
This is in i399 gear, LFR polearm and haste-reforge.

Pre-tendon:
Get full SR from Amalgamation during his nuclear cast

My rotation:
FF
Mangle
!Ravage from charging a blood
Shred (until < 40 energy)
Pop cooldowns (TF+Berserk+VP Trinket / TF+VP Trinket)
!Ravage if not at 5 CP
Rake if < 5 CP
Rip if 5 CP
Rake if not applied
!Ravage if not used yet
Shred/Bite spam into eternity

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Paramount » Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:02 pm

p3lim wrote:Finally at this fight now, and so far I've gathered this:

I am the only one bringing mangle + FF, so I have to apply both at the start.
With Berserk up I do ~1.4m dmg on the tendon, without I do ~900k.
This is in i399 gear, LFR polearm and haste-reforge.

Pre-tendon:
Get full SR from Amalgamation during his nuclear cast

My rotation:
FF
Mangle
!Ravage from charging a blood
Shred (until < 40 energy)
Pop cooldowns (TF+Berserk+VP Trinket / TF+VP Trinket)
!Ravage if not at 5 CP
Rake if < 5 CP
Rip if 5 CP
Rake if not applied
!Ravage if not used yet
Shred/Bite spam into eternity


This is one rare case that you actually disregard your current energy when popping TF+Berserk. The tendon is only exposed for 20 seconds so you want to hit your TF+Berserk+Trinket instantly at the very start and maximize their potential. I would apply them in between FF and Mangle.
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Stenhaldi » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:15 am

That's not optimal because you will run out of energy in berserk. You still want to avoid wasting the TF energy (though it's probably worth wasting a small amount, something like 20, to get TF on rip or rake if the opportunity arises).

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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Samskeyti » Tue May 08, 2012 8:59 am

After the latest nerf, my guild has been doing really well handling this fight, before we used to just die after we got the first tendon down on hc, and last night, we were so close it hurt! Just before the final burst phase to get the second half of the third tendon down :-(

I just wanted to briefly say how we do it, because, it's all trial end error kinda still. And maybe some have some suggestions we haven't thought of.

This is 25man hc Spine:

For the first plate, me and the other feral kitty are just killing bloods near the plate we want to get off, in cat form, and the raid is dps'ing the amalgamation.
We have our DK tank tank the amalgamation where the main raid is bunched up in the middle of the back. Hunters are on tentacle duty, to time the stun phases just right so they don't happen in a burst phase.
DXE tells me how many bloods have died so I usually announce it when we have about nine. The dps stops on the amalgamation at around 10%, then kills bloods if we're still having some near us. Then, the tank drags the amalgamation through our blood pile and we kill it off near the plate there. I usually just shred with 5combopoints so I get a full SR. I usually don't manage to charge a blood for ravage, but I do try. I use stampede when the plate falls off and we dps the tendon. I use the macro that's posted above, to target the tendon, use FF and my Sigil.
Rinse, repeat, plate falls off. Now the other feral and myself go bear, and I use FR (unglyphed) during the roll.
So here is the new part we did yesterday:

Us 2 kitties stay bear, stay near the second plate, and taunt bloods that our warrior tank is kiting around the platform in circles, till we have about 9 dead. DK still tanks amalgamation, hunters on corruption etc etc.
Eventually bloods die, we do tendon phase as above, and back to bear and taunting and dps'ing. Second plate gets off.
Rinse repeat, back to the front again, taunting blood, getting a rogue to help us kill them faster. Many bloods, handle it.... Yay 9 dead, get stacks, kill amalgamation, dps tendon, back to bear...

...at that point, the poor warrior gets overrun with bloods and we don't quite get to the very last burst phase, because he dies, we die.

So maybe other kitty stays bear, I go cat in between taunting bloods to kill them faster? But killing them too fast doesn't do much because we still have to get the amalgamation low.
The last try last night, when some bloods were dead, I just decided to charge over to the amalgamation and help dps it to speed things up. But, well, blood tank died.

Is anyone using a similar method? Is there anything we two kitties can improve? We use FR alternately, is it maybe more useful to have it glyphed?
DPS wise we're fine, as we tank in full cat gear and spec.

Happy for all criticism. Also, I reforge crit and mastery, then haste, no exp. for this fight.No combatlog because our logger was ill last night. I know it probably would be very helpful...
So this is armory for myself: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/steamwheedle-cartel/samskeyti/advanced (nevermind the cloak, I'm using batwing cloak :D)
This is armory for other kitty, she's doing much more overall damage than me on this fight: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/steamwheedle-cartel/enna/advanced

Edit: It's deaded!

We finally got spine down last night :) The change was that for the second plate, our warrior tank didn't kite the adds in a circle but tanked them t the front, and us two ferals dp'sed. No change for third tendon, we were back to tanking bloods. And three pairs of the boots dropped, so we got upgrades! Now on to Madness!
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Re: Spine of Deathwing

Postby Sibylle » Wed May 23, 2012 1:55 am

GRATZ!! We never got this far, unfortunately, but I did kill it on my priest. Kitty is still stuck at 5/8 because half the people in our raid want to take a break until Mists, hmph.
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