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[MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

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[MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

Postby Hinalover » Sat May 12, 2012 7:06 pm

Cross-Posting this from MMO-C:

As some of you may know, I am the current dev for the Feral and Guardian module of Rawr. Ast who was the original dev for it is no longer active (he is still around). Anyway through Cata, I've been trying to keep up the module but it has been getting real difficult with the current coding. So for the past 2 months, I've been trying to re-design the module for MoP. Earlier today I was able to get the rotation working as close to correct as I possibly am able to. Using SimC's current Heroic T13 gear set, I'm coming up with dps numbers about 1.5k over what SimC is on live; so I'm calling working for the time being. In full T13 Heroic the module is favoring Hit/Exp > Haste ~= Crit > Mastery. I have not done much testing in 346 ilvl gear for some perspective yet.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17595079/Release.rar

What I'm asking is to use the link above (which is a release version of the latest build) and give any input. IE: what information in the main page you want me to provide, inconsistency in numbers, etc.

2 Notes:
1) T12 Set bonuses are not implemented
2) Talents and Glyphs are also not implemented yet (will get to this next).

Option Menu Idea:
1) Varying level - set the character level of the character in the options menu to see; set the target level. This is to see what gear you need at any level (this includes while leveling in MoP).

So if you have ideas for the options menu or find any issues let me know.

PS: Vial of Shadows is now giving correct valuing

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Re: [MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

Postby Leafkiller » Sat May 12, 2012 8:16 pm

Can you provide the rotation you are simming? I am assuming you are using the MoP branch ( http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraf ... nches/mop/ ) for your work.

Right off the top you will get my standard question about the relative stat values you have posted, which relates to why the stat value generation is defaulted to off in Mew. In 4.03 many of us have found that relative stat values are not constants with a given gear set and as you raise lower given stats via various reforging schemes, the relative values change, as does the overall dps. Yawning wrote that determining the optimum reforging scheme for a given gear set is an NP-Complete problem and for some time we have know that the only thing you can conclude from a given relative stat value computation is whether or not a single piece of gear is better than the piece of gear you are currently using given an existing reforging scheme (assuming you have taken into account the hard caps of hit and exp ahead of time so the new gear does not exceed them).

Yawning did some work using a genetic algorithm to try to tackle this issue, but to the best of my knowledge he has not worked on this for some time.

Assuming you can come up with a half way decent formulation model for the new rotation, how are you addressing this issue? Back in LK when arpen was king, RAWR was pretty reliable for comparing gear on a feral, but I have not found that to be the case for all of cata.

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Re: [MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

Postby Hinalover » Sat May 12, 2012 10:02 pm

First of all I know the stat valuing issue and I'm just stating what I'm currently getting based against what is currently on live. Keep in mind that on Beta, weapon damage has been buffed by 2x and I think that is part of the reason at T13 level, mastery just falls to the side.

You can look at the rotation here:

https://rawr.codeplex.com/SourceControl ... otation.cs

Part of the issue is that the feral module of Rawr was based on 5-year old code by Tang and it really has not stood the test of time (sort-a-speak).

Basically I'm actually basing my rotation around Energy gained during the raid and Shred count. Dopefish (the boomkin dev) helped me figure out the average number of attacks needed to reach each Combo Point. You can view the spreadsheet for it here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... qSHc#gid=0

Once I got that information, I had a priority of:

rake
Savage Roar
Figure out the number of times Savage Roar is applied for the rest of the fight
5 CP shred
Rip
then figure out the rest of the number of times Rip is "applied" for the remainder of the fight
Then I seperated the applied count by 67% with T13 2-piece or 22% for non T13 2-piece (will be adjusted) to get BitW (I'm keeping the name in the code)
I then factor in the rest of the rake applications and Ravage!
Finally I use the rest of the pooled energy to figure out Shred + FB (+ any extra energy) and left-over shred

I can change things around but this is my current "rotation." I understand the odd-bally feel Rawr has been in Cata and I'm trying to fix it with this re-code. It's part of the reason I'm trying to get this out now so that people can took at the code and tell me anything that seems off.

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Re: [MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

Postby Yawning » Sun May 13, 2012 2:16 am

Leafkiller found me and pointed me at this. FWIW, have not been following MoP changes at all, but I feel I can comment somewhat.

Hinalover wrote:Basically I'm actually basing my rotation around Energy gained during the raid and Shred count. Dopefish (the boomkin dev) helped me figure out the average number of attacks needed to reach each Combo Point. You can view the spreadsheet for it here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... qSHc#gid=0


This is the way Toskk (and later myself) used to do closed form modeling for kitty in WotLK/early Cata, so I'm reasonably familiar with this approach.

Hinalover wrote:Once I got that information, I had a priority of:

rake
Savage Roar
Figure out the number of times Savage Roar is applied for the rest of the fight
5 CP shred
Rip
then figure out the rest of the number of times Rip is "applied" for the remainder of the fight
Then I seperated the applied count by 67% with T13 2-piece or 22% for non T13 2-piece (will be adjusted) to get BitW (I'm keeping the name in the code)
I then factor in the rest of the rake applications and Ravage!
Finally I use the rest of the pooled energy to figure out Shred + FB (+ any extra energy) and left-over shred


The high level problem with this approach is that you end up treating energy and cps as a far more fluid resource than in practice. This was somewhat workable in WotLK but energy/cp generation and expenditure is considerably more volatile in Cata (and presumably MoP). I don't have a good solution to this, because simming it solves all of these problems at the expense of run time.

Down to more nit picky things:
  • Unless they changed things, the cat GCD is 1.0 sec.
  • You need to actually model Rake/Rip interaction with TF. What you're doing now is somewhat naive (and will give incorrect results assuming the ideal priority is similar to live).
  • You need to model collisions between abilities (Eg: Rake and SR dropping at the same time). Uptime on all your abilities as is will be inflated. At a minimum you need to look at GCD collisions. You also *should* look at the SR/Rip timers being sufficiently close that you end up pushing back Rip (I assume MoP SR is mechanically identical to WotLK SR so it's Rip that gets pushed back).

If I had more time, I would run your code with a known profile and compare damage breakdowns with sim output (either Mew or SimC), but my motivation/desire to do anything WoW related is rather minimal these days. Sorry.

Even if DPS is fairly similar, I suspect the finer breakdowns will be rather different.
"Understanding is a three-edged sword."

Mew: http://code.google.com/p/mew-wow-druid-model/

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Re: [MoP] Rawr Feral Module - Need Your Input

Postby Hinalover » Sun May 13, 2012 2:39 am

Yawning wrote:The high level problem with this approach is that you end up treating energy and cps as a far more fluid resource than in practice. This was somewhat workable in WotLK but energy/cp generation and expenditure is considerably more volatile in Cata (and presumably MoP). I don't have a good solution to this, because simming it solves all of these problems at the expense of run time.

Down to more nit picky things:
  • Unless they changed things, the cat GCD is 1.0 sec.
  • You need to actually model Rake/Rip interaction with TF. What you're doing now is somewhat naive (and will give incorrect results assuming the ideal priority is similar to live).
  • You need to model collisions between abilities (Eg: Rake and SR dropping at the same time). Uptime on all your abilities as is will be inflated. At a minimum you need to look at GCD collisions. You also *should* look at the SR/Rip timers being sufficiently close that you end up pushing back Rip (I assume MoP SR is mechanically identical to WotLK SR so it's Rip that gets pushed back).

If I had more time, I would run your code with a known profile and compare damage breakdowns with sim output (either Mew or SimC), but my motivation/desire to do anything WoW related is rather minimal these days. Sorry.

Even if DPS is fairly similar, I suspect the finer breakdowns will be rather different.


I can take a look at the interactions. I tried to do an average of everything for a first pass so my Tigers Fury Uptime bonus damage is build into all of the abilities ( part of the bonusdamagemultiplier in each of the abilities has a line that says: (1 + (tigersfuryuptime > 0 ? Abilities_TigersFury.BonusDamage * tigersfuryuptime : 0)) (or something along those lines). So yes the damage bonus is built in and I can adjust the uptime if needbe from the rotation module itself.

Like I said before I'm trying to throw this out now so that I can get a better module available come MoP. Right now Rawr is just not cutting it and that needs to be fixed.

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