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Feral MoP Rotation

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Feral MoP Rotation

Postby BoldTM » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:22 pm

Hi, so been away and have tested Moonkins on the beta and was thinking about trying out the feral moves. Saw that Tinder is perhaps releasing something after 5.0 hits but wanted to just ask what is the basics i should try out on beta.

Seems DoC seems to be a bit OP?

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:58 pm

DoC is by far the biggest DPS up for us right now. I would expect a nerf of some kind coming soon.

Somethings to get used to that are new on the beta:
1. Take Mangle off your bars. It does not give a bleed buff anymore and just works as a weak version of shred you can do from any direction. Unless a fight like Ultrax comes along, or leveling you will never use it.

2. Savage Roar must be up when you apply bleeds. As all of our bleeds are a snap shot of your current stats not having SR up will mean the duration will be 30% less damage. While not a big deal for Rake, having Rip and SR fall off at the same time SUCKS. Do your best to get in the habit of doing an early SR with fewer combo points to make sure the end times are not sync'd.

3. SLOW DOWN. On the beta we have much lower crit levels and lower energy regen. As soon as you hit 86 both will plumet. It won't be like DS where we have lots of combo points and energy to work with. We will have to slow down and not hit shred the second we have energy. Learn to pool again.

4. Farie Fire as a stealth debuff is still 5 minutes, but the armor debuff portion is now only 30 seconds. Other then a Guardian druid we are the best spec to apply this debuff because all it costs us is a GCD. See above and we will have plenty of down time to make sure this is kept up. Use an add on of some kind to track this debuff and get in the habit on live to refresh it anytime you are not doing something. Week after this it will go live and it will be on you.

5. We have several new self healing options. Get to know Natures Swiftness, Predatory Swiftness, and Cenarion Ward (for leveling). You will be expected to use these more often while leveling and in raids as we are more squishy then we used to be. Also come 90 we will have to do a lot of healing for our DPS to be maximized.

Those are the big ones I can think of off the top of my head. As I think of more I will add here.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby aggixx » Sun Aug 19, 2012 4:36 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:4. Farie Fire as a stealth debuff is still 5 minutes, but the armor debuff portion is now only 30 seconds. Other then a Guardian druid we are the best spec to apply this debuff because all it costs us is a GCD. See above and we will have plenty of down time to make sure this is kept up. Use an add on of some kind to track this debuff and get in the habit on live to refresh it anytime you are not doing something. Week after this it will go live and it will be on you.


Thanks for this tip, not something that had occurred to me! On the bright side, I guess it kind of makes Faerie Swarm a pseudo-"passive" slow in a really strange way, sort of xD.
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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Aug 19, 2012 6:40 pm

As Shred and Mangle both have Infected Wounds slowing built in, I don't see Farie Swarm being very useful for us unless we have to ranged slow.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby aggixx » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:19 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:As Shred and Mangle both have Infected Wounds slowing built in, I don't see Farie Swarm being very useful for us unless we have to ranged slow.

Fair point, but at least it looks awesome! In an incredibly over the top sort of way.

Unless they've changed the graphic since I last tried it.
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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Sorcerer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:55 am

Looking at updated simc, rake being at almost 34% of our dmg portion looks really bad in terms of a class design.
Having so big 'wait time' is also a flawed design but it's the only reason I play feral :lol: Happy it is untouched so far.

Be my guess we will see a heavy turn over somewhere along the lines. Maybe not by the release, maybe first patch.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Aug 20, 2012 12:24 pm

Sorcerer wrote:Looking at updated simc, rake being at almost 34% of our dmg portion looks really bad in terms of a class design.
Having so big 'wait time' is also a flawed design but it's the only reason I play feral :lol: Happy it is untouched so far.

Be my guess we will see a heavy turn over somewhere along the lines. Maybe not by the release, maybe first patch.


I don't think that Rake's current numbers are a question of bad class design. Rake's dps is being inflated by DoC right now. I think aggixx was getting at least 2/3rds of the Rake uptime to be with the DoC buff when I spoke to him yesterday, and by last night he had added to that. I can only assume that when the dev(s) came up with DoC they did not anticipate ferals creating a rotation where so many of the DoC charges were used for DoTs, nor I suspect, did they factor in Predatory Swiftness, which allows us to get the DoC buff approximately every 12 seconds using an instant cast while remaining in feral form. Add in NS and we have almost a perfect storm of abilities to leverage DoC. Assuming that they nerf the DoC benefit in some way, shape or form, then you will see Rake's contribution a lot lower (somewhere in the 20-25% range depending on whether or not we would want to keep stacking mastery).

TLDR: I think it is unfair to characterize the class design as being broken right now due to inflated Rake damage. Rather, it is a single talent which is in question. As much as I would love to get into MoP with DoC unchanged, that seems highly unlikely at this point. Now, on the question of large wait times, that is a question of class design. Obviously it gets better as our gear improves through each expansion, but they do start us out slow each time out the gates, and the rotation is certainly a lot more fun when you have more energy to execute it.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby AsgardFM » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:11 pm

Leafkiller wrote: I can only assume that when the dev(s) came up with DoC they did not anticipate ferals creating a rotation where so many of the DoC charges were used for DoTs, nor I suspect, did they factor in Predatory Swiftness, which allows us to get the DoC buff approximately every 12 seconds using an instant cast while remaining in feral form. Add in NS and we have almost a perfect storm of abilities to leverage DoC.


I can't believe Blizzard didn't expect Ferals to use DoC in conjunction with Pred. Swiftness. To my knowledge, PS is the only (without Nature's Swiftness) to get an instant HT these days, there would have been no reason to change the tooltip if Blizz didn't want it being used to weave heals in the rotation. I'm more surprised that they decided to allow NS heals to trigger DoC. If we were just limited to PS procs then all we would be able to buff is 1 Rake and 1 Shred for a decent damage boost. Adding in NS allows that 50% bonus to apply on Rip. Timed with TF and you're allowing that 30% + 50% to go on our two most powerful attacks, instead of just the one. Added to that is the fact that it forces you to take NS if you take DoC, a situtation that shouldn't occur with talents designed to give you options based on playstyle/encounter.

The strangest part of this Rake heavy damage is that they went and buffed Rake by 23% last patch. It's almost like they want Rake to be our #1 damage source...

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Sorcerer » Mon Aug 20, 2012 2:18 pm

The rake damage is especially out of hand in current BiS gear on beta at level 85 when you level. I can understand the fact that game is not balanced towards level 85, but a single rake is around 130% of any mob HP till 86. Basically run and rake target and it will die. I wonder how it looks like at lower ilev but probably not that far off.

Granted I am still 85 on beta as I started recently post holidays/decent patches but looking at what direction things are going, I can't say they have clue what to do.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:16 pm

AsgardFM wrote: Adding in NS allows that 50% bonus to apply on Rip. Timed with TF and you're allowing that 30% + 50% to go on our two most powerful attacks, instead of just the one. Added to that is the fact that it forces you to take NS if you take DoC, a situtation that shouldn't occur with talents designed to give you options based on playstyle/encounter.

You do realize that you can buff Rip with a PS proc right? After you hit an SR finisher and you get the proc you have 8 seconds to get 4 combo points. Once you get there you proc DoC and use 1 attack to get to 5 combo points and hit Rip. Having TF up for this helps a lot as you can get the energy to come up with those 4 points before PS wears off. But this is totally possible and must be done to keep the highest dps possible. If we only use NS to buff Rip, you could only buff every 3rd Rip, and delay using NS for 1:20 seconds instead of 1 minute, or you could let Rip fall off for 8 seconds.

It is also possible (though VERY HARD) to have every Rip and Rake buffed by hard casting HT when a PS proc can't be had. While this is bad and should not make it into our rotation it may be the best possible DPS achivable on the Beta.

I have been saying evern since that Rake buff that they did that to soften the upcoming DoC nerf. I am still surprised it hasn't hit yet. I do know that when DoC was only 30% buffed, it wasn't a huge win over HotW.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Aug 20, 2012 3:41 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:I have been saying evern since that Rake buff that they did that to soften the upcoming DoC nerf. I am still surprised it hasn't hit yet. I do know that when DoC was only 30% buffed, it wasn't a huge win over HotW.


Even at 30% the difference is significant. Keep in mind that not only has aggixx optimized the rotation over the last couple of days, but he also fixed some bugs that were preventing it from working properly. I think he has added almost 10% to the total dps with his changes. DoC is incredibly powerful when you weave it into the rotation optimally (although probably not as powerful as simc is right now since there are a lot of edge cases modeled).

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:29 pm

It wasn't anything to do with Simcraft. When they first put it out there (given there were a few more bugs then now) I wasn't getting a huge boost over HotW in my pratical tests on the Beta. I will admit that my execution was far from perfect, but the Risk/Reward portion wasn't very different from HotW.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby AsgardFM » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:
AsgardFM wrote: Adding in NS allows that 50% bonus to apply on Rip. Timed with TF and you're allowing that 30% + 50% to go on our two most powerful attacks, instead of just the one. Added to that is the fact that it forces you to take NS if you take DoC, a situtation that shouldn't occur with talents designed to give you options based on playstyle/encounter.

You do realize that you can buff Rip with a PS proc right? After you hit an SR finisher and you get the proc you have 8 seconds to get 4 combo points. Once you get there you proc DoC and use 1 attack to get to 5 combo points and hit Rip. Having TF up for this helps a lot as you can get the energy to come up with those 4 points before PS wears off. But this is totally possible and must be done to keep the highest dps possible. If we only use NS to buff Rip, you could only buff every 3rd Rip, and delay using NS for 1:20 seconds instead of 1 minute, or you could let Rip fall off for 8 seconds.

It is also possible (though VERY HARD) to have every Rip and Rake buffed by hard casting HT when a PS proc can't be had. While this is bad and should not make it into our rotation it may be the best possible DPS achivable on the Beta.


I've not reached 90 on the beat to test it myself but my understanding was that DoC was a passive: that after using HT you were given a buff increasing damage of your next two attacks and after using an offensive ability you gained a buff increasing your next two heals. By that logic, two attacks would be impossible to generate a 5CP finisher, barring external mechanics that changed CP generation (None spring to mind but as a possible encounter feature).
Is it instead an On Use that lights up after achieving the required conditions of Heal/Attack or another method entirely?

And I wasn't trying to consider hardcasting - barring stop/start DPS requirements of encounters it has no place in a rotation.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby aggixx » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:19 pm

You aren't forced to use your Predatory Swiftness proc immediately after proccing it, you have a 8 second window. If you can proc the PS buff (with a 5pt finisher, perhaps) and then get to 4cp, and then convert that PS proc into a DoC proc via Healing Touch, you can then generate your 5th CP and cast a buffed Rip.
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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby AsgardFM » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:30 pm

/facepalm

I shall now leave this discussion in shame.

Until something I feel like discussing comes up again anyway... :roll:

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby adianar » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:35 pm

Would it be possible to request a clear rotation statement for the following scenarios until MOP actually drops. I just want to make sure I'm getting this and particularly while the addons/aka crutches are hosed up.

Assuming NS and Incarnation as well as NS and SotF as these seem to be the primary selections for kitties depending on flat dps or burst dps engagements.

1. Opener

2. Normal rotation

3. Burst rotation

4. BitW or execute in effect

Thank you!

Adi

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:36 pm

adianar wrote:Would it be possible to request a clear rotation statement for the following scenarios until MOP actually drops. I just want to make sure I'm getting this and particularly while the addons/aka crutches are hosed up.

Assuming NS and Incarnation as well as NS and SotF as these seem to be the primary selections for kitties depending on flat dps or burst dps engagements.

1. Opener

2. Normal rotation

3. Burst rotation

4. BitW or execute in effect

Thank you!

Adi


You should read the ovale script - it shows you that.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby adianar » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:52 pm

Perfect. Thanks Leaf. I haven't had time to download it yet nor mess with it at all since 5.0.4 dropped. I am a happy user of your scripts from previous and I always tell new ferals to go find your info if they only want to learn it once. :)

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Mykeela » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:03 pm

i'm sorry if this has been posted out somewhere else, but can someone help me with a Feral Cat AoE macro?

What I want is to be able to press the same key for Thrash adn Swipe, but when the Thrash debuff is over (after 15 secs) it resets back to Thrash

This is what I have at the moment:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=15 Thrash, Swipe

But it doesn't work :(

Help?

Also is thos macro working for you guys??

/cast Berserk
/cast Incarnation: King of the Jungle

sometimes it works for me and sometimes it doesnt....

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Alcowhorlick » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:23 am

Mykeela wrote:i'm sorry if this has been posted out somewhere else, but can someone help me with a Feral Cat AoE macro?

What I want is to be able to press the same key for Thrash adn Swipe, but when the Thrash debuff is over (after 15 secs) it resets back to Thrash

This is what I have at the moment:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=15 Thrash, Swipe

But it doesn't work :(

Help?


I'm no macro expert, but I think this will reset after the Swipe, you need to put more in to cover 15 seconds worth of Swiping:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=15 Thrash, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe

The number of Swipes will be dependent on your GCD I suppose.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Mihir » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:05 am

That's not how castsequence reset works; the reset-countdown is (re)started everytime you press the macro. So if you press it, and after 10 seconds you press it a 2nd time, it would take another 15 seconds after that for the castsequence to reset. See http://www.wowpedia.org/Castsequence

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Mykeela » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:40 pm

Alcowhorlick wrote:
Mykeela wrote:i'm sorry if this has been posted out somewhere else, but can someone help me with a Feral Cat AoE macro?

What I want is to be able to press the same key for Thrash adn Swipe, but when the Thrash debuff is over (after 15 secs) it resets back to Thrash

This is what I have at the moment:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=15 Thrash, Swipe

But it doesn't work :(

Help?


I'm no macro expert, but I think this will reset after the Swipe, you need to put more in to cover 15 seconds worth of Swiping:

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=15 Thrash, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe

The number of Swipes will be dependent on your GCD I suppose.


Alright, this one seems to be working:

/castsequence reset=10 Thrash, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe, Swipe

5 seconds window to get enough energy to cast the new Thrash

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Alcowhorlick » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:00 pm

Mihir wrote:That's not how castsequence reset works; the reset-countdown is (re)started everytime you press the macro. So if you press it, and after 10 seconds you press it a 2nd time, it would take another 15 seconds after that for the castsequence to reset. See http://www.wowpedia.org/Castsequence

Well the first line of that link seems to be supporting what I said, rather than each press resetting it:
This mechanic requires you to click the button multiple times. Each successive click advances the position in the list, until it is reset or reaches the end, in which case it starts over.

It's quite possible reset used to act like that, I can remember Blizzard changing macros so that they couldn't be used in a "bot-like" way in the past at some point.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:13 pm

I wouldn't go with a macro for our AOE rotation. The reason is (and it blows hard) that we rarely have an AOE pack all together at 1 time. Most fights the AOE packs come in a few at a time. This may require you to update Thrash more often then just after the bleed drops. This is both for the buffed bleed damage, but also for the Weakened blows debuff. It helps the tank(s) out.

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Re: Feral MoP Rotation

Postby Blufyre » Mon Sep 03, 2012 9:01 am

Just wanted to ask whether there is ever any call for using Thrash outside of the AOE rotation to apply Weakened Blows, or whether we should just be leaving its application to Warriors with Thunderclap, Shammies with Earthshock etc? Am presuming the latter or there would have been a previous mention it here but, am in the progress of redoing my debuff tracking for 5.0.4 and was just trying to workout whether I track Weakened Blows like weakened armor using my main rotation buff tracker (in my case Event Horizon) or just track it on multiple nameplates using Tidy Plates. Any thoughts gratefully received.

Pologies is this is a noobish question.

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