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Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion and script

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Sep 06, 2012 6:14 pm

Mihir wrote:So i herd u liek rake & thrash...


Sounds like you don't miss Mangle spam at all...

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Sep 06, 2012 7:18 pm

Sorcerer wrote:I think I have to ask this here since it doesnt seem we got any attention from CMs regarding class balance thread on US forums, to which I do not have access to bump the 'issue' with mastery/dot scaling.

So can someone please report the issue with rake being main combo builder and mastery actually going ahead or almost wDPS and actually somewhat bump the issue till we get the attention? Not like there is much time left and it looks like they either missed it still or are completly overwhelmed with the issue.

I know it sounds retarded from my side but this really bothers me.


I posted about this just now. Tinderhoof can reference my post when he links some logs. That should help raise awareness of this.

Keep in mind something I mention in my post. We will not be spamming Rake as much at level 90 even if things stay the way they are now. With the DoC buff on a Rake, the balance will shift back to Shred (that is our expectation at least). It will really center around getting DoC up as much as possible on Rake and Rip.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:00 pm

One of the fastest replies I have ever seen from GC:

64895772793 wrote:
At both level 85 and level 90, in high-mastery conditions, Rake will outscale Shred for DPE and become the primary filler move for CPs. Shred is still weaved in to extend rip duration and letting tf/proc buffed Rakes roll, but overall the rotations is largely simplified by just spamming rake.


Yeah, this seems like a valid concern (i.e. the numbers make sense). We'll investigate and try to shift damage around to discourage it.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:01 pm

Yep. Beat me to it.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:03 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:Yep. Beat me to it.


That seems to be a recurring theme for you on various forums of late...

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Sep 06, 2012 8:03 pm

Hey I still got to work. ;^ )

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby scorpio0920 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:06 am

Some player report that rake damage has been reduced.

And shred and mangle damage has been increased.

Almost confirm at this moment.

Taiwan realm.


gear 409, mastery 1591

Approximate ​​change

Rake no cri 13k -> 11k

Shred no cri 16k -> 20K

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:09 am

Time to update the shred filler script...

That is a really fast response...

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby scorpio0920 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:12 am

Leafkiller wrote:Time to update the shred filler script...

That is a really fast response...



Waiting BUFF. GC: Coming sooooooon~

Waiting NERF. GC: Very soon.

Just kidding.
;)

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:18 pm

Has anyone else confirmed the changes?

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Mihir » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:30 pm

Just tried on the EU servers. With 73% mastery, rake hits for 13k, mangle for 14k and shred for 16k.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Terias » Fri Sep 07, 2012 4:23 pm

Similar results on us live realms now too.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Yriss » Sat Sep 08, 2012 4:42 am

i'm really sad they nerfed rake ... i did pretty good dps on last ptr tests (elegon25hm/stone guards 10nm), doc+rake on both targets if possible (add+boss or both stone guards) helped a lot, and i loved level like a moonkin (85-87), dot +run :D
Now rake is nerfed, is doc +mastery reforge always a good choice ? Not so easy to master (i don't master it :'( lot of mistakes yet on a real fight), and less damage now on rake ... is it possible than NV or hotw are better now ? ( I hope we won't be hurt too badly for 2 targets/switch fights now ...)
i hate these changes just before release, without enough testing for them to readjust numbers if needed ... :(

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby scorpio0920 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 10:17 pm

They buff the mangle, shred, but forgot to buff of shred!

Shred! with Tiger's Fury, however, the damage lower than shred, this is unreasonable.

It's make Shred of Glyph useless, even in frontal condition.

gear 409
mastery 1771
with shred glyphs

Shred damage,
Image

Shred! damage,
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Konungr » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:19 pm

scorpio0920 wrote:They buff the mangle, shred, but forgot to buff of shred!

Shred! with Tiger's Fury, however, the damage lower than shred, this is unreasonable.

It's make Shred of Glyph useless, even in frontal condition.

gear 409
mastery 1771
with shred glyphs

Shred damage,
Image

Shred! damage,
Image


GoShred was always useless, it allows you to get parried...

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:38 pm

It's great for leveling. I tried this today and I did not see this happen. Can you verify this again.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:43 pm

Also was this with a bleed up? Because that is a 20% damage increase for Shred. If you let it drop when testing this it would explain the difference.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby scorpio0920 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:10 am

I do a more rigorous test.

Almost confirm, Shred! NOT buff.

No any proc buff, just Tiger's Fury and bleed up.

Shred min: 16492 max: 41713
Shred! min: 14310 max: 32993


Shred/TF min: 19729 max: 47187
Shred!/TF min: 16452 max: 40176


Consider frontal condition, Mangle/TF Shred!/TF, they have the same damage. (maybe Mangle/TF a bit higher, or because RNG)
Mangle cost 35 EN, Shred! cost 40 EN.
Shred of Glyph is useless any more.
Mangle/TF min: 16822 max: 40833
Shred!/TF min: 16452 max: 40176

Mangle min: 13834 max: 35574
Shred! min: 14310 max: 32993

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Sep 09, 2012 2:55 am

I got naked with no SR, just Rake and Shred in and out of TF. I can confirm your findings. It's really strange though, I tested this this morning and it was working as expected. Puna tested it with me and can back me up. However this is clearly broken. I will post up in the Beta Class Feedback again.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:05 am

Tinderhoof wrote:I got naked with no SR, just Rake and Shred in and out of TF. I can confirm your findings. It's really strange though, I tested this this morning and it was working as expected. Puna tested it with me and can back me up. However this is clearly broken. I will post up in the Beta Class Feedback again.


I just posted about this. I think I stopped reading just before your post Tinder, did a quick scan of the Class Balance Analysis thread and did not see a post on this. Here is my post: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=35#697

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:08 am

We are in sync in our thinking, but your ninja mastery foosball skills outshine my own.
/bowtothemaster

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 09, 2012 3:27 am

Sure sounds like the Shred buff was 15%...

I wonder if Rake was lowered by the same amount.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 09, 2012 4:38 pm

@aggixx **

The most awkward point in the current rotation continues to happen when we do a FB 6-8 seconds before Rip is going to expire. I often see the script call for SR just as Rip is expiring as it can take that long to get 5 combo points up for the Rip. Ideally we should detect that is going to happen right after the FB, and cast a 1 combo point SR to put it safely beyond Rip and not use up the too many of the combo points that we need to refresh Rip in a timely manner. My gut feel is that this will both make the rotation smoother and also increase dps, which is something we should sim. I was thinking about adding an additional desync conditional along these lines:

savage_roar,if=combo_points>=1&combo_points<3&target.time_to_die>=8.5&dot.rip.remains<6&buff.savage_roar.remains<=10

The actual values need to be played with. Also it should be tuned taking into account Rip Shreds*.

Thoughts?

* Have you looked into what it would take to get Rip Shreds returned as a number instead of or in addition to as a boolean?
** Until we hear otherwise I think it is safe to assume that Mangle and Shred were buffed by 15% and Rake was nerfed by 15%. This will allow us to move forward with simming.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:08 am

  • I'm not sure why it's necessary to check combo_points at all in the line you listed, but otherwise seems feasible.
  • I have not. I'm guessing it wouldn't be very simple as you'd probably want to change it from a parameter to a value so you can do things like $(rip_duration)=(dot.rip.remains+(dot.rip.extends_remain*2))
  • I can try that, but I'm not very good at spell_data overrides. (yet) =P
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:53 am

It needs to be at least 1 combo point to make sure that the SR is pushed far enough in the future to be past the time it takes to refresh Rip. I max on combo points is to avoid refreshing when you have enough combo points that Rip will be refreshed before SR comes off of cooldown. There are probably lots of ways to do that. I left off that this should only happen with target life > 25%...

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