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Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion and script

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby p3lim » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:31 pm

Why do I see kitties trying to weave Thrash into their single-target rotation?
If there is a good reason behind this, please let me know.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:44 pm

The Thrash bleed has sim'd to be a DPS up if you arn't spamming it. I believe Aggixx/Leaf gave some details a post or two back.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby p3lim » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:47 pm

Alright, been looking around and it seemed people used it on OoC procs as long we don't need cp and we dont overlap an existing Thrash bleed by more than 5 seconds, because of the slightly higher DPE vs Shred.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:27 pm

It's not slightly higher, it's almost double the DPE. Shreds biggest advantage is that it grants us combo points that allows us to do things that are much more (effective) DPE. As such, we generally use thrash in our single target situation where one of the two following conditions is true, (usually) in addition to making sure to not clip any ticks:
  • We don't care about how much energy it costs us (ex: on Omen of Clarity)
  • We don't care about earning combo points (ex: When we're at 5 CP), in this case it's ok to clip 1 tick (casting it under the 6 second mark) as its DPE is still better than Shred when you lose one tick.

Tinderhoof wrote:Will this change Hit/Exp any:
One stack of Dream of Cenarius (damage) is being consumed on an ability miss. Is this working as intended?
Is Wild Charge (Caster Form) intended to trigger GCD?


Yes and yes.

I am guessing not much in the actual number value, but it means for sure that we MUST be Hit/Exp capped for a DoC build.

It should if that's not already happening in the sim. I will check.

Also, the second half of your statement doesn't make much sense. If it's important that we MUST be capped then it's because the number value is high.

Edit: From what I can tell the sim decrements the DoC stack regardless of the outcome of the ability, although I have not checked any debug logs to confirm.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:15 pm

I did some sort of an analysis of how talents affect stat value, and I've drawn some conclusions.

Things that I've observed from that data with relative certainty:
  1. Dream of Cenarius increases the value of Hit/Expertise and Mastery, and decreases the value of Haste.
  2. Nature's Vigil increases the value of Hit/Expertise.
  3. HotW increases the value of Agility. (Herp derp who would've guessed.)

Some logical conclusions that are at least somewhat reinforced by the data:
  1. Force of Nature slightly decreases the value of Mastery, as it is the only choice in the tier that's damage contribution has no mastery scaling.
  2. Incarnation very slightly decreases the value of Crit, as it is possible to crit cap while under Incarnation and the target is above 80% HP.

Sources:
SimC Report
Spreadsheet 1
Spreadsheet 2
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:45 am

@aggixx

I am not sure if you did any optimization work for the HotW and NV scripts, but the only major thing I see missing from the script is the potion + TF conditionals at the start of BitW. There may be some other small tweaks that could be made, but those are the most obvious ones and I would expect anything else to be pretty small.

Do either you or Starfox have plans to implement the casting portion of the HotW proc? It would be nice if we could run some sim numbers (even without a weapon swap) so we could have something concrete to share with Blizz.

Once you get the the BitW optimization conditionals, I would like to capture how much dps we are gaining from "cheesing" Rip damage at the start of BitW for all three tier 6 talents. I would like to share that data with Blizz so they understand the impact of the removal of snapshots from the FB refreshes, and also point out that if they revert it back, then we will be facing a dps nerf. My hope is that they do revert it back, but accompany that with some other adjustment (I can dream, can't I?).

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Tue Sep 18, 2012 9:21 am

Yeah I did no optimization for the other talents yet.

Like the quote I posted yesterday(?), I brought it up in IRC and there was an agreement that it is something that should be implemented, including weapon swap, as it's an important thing for us to be able to explore. I don't know what the status on it's implementation is.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:36 pm

Kind of venturing offtopic posting infos here, but I'm sure people will appreciate it and this is essentially "the SimulationCraft thread", so here goes nothing:

Trinket rankings! (btw Alaron, feel free to steal these for your list). These are single trinket rankings that are split into three sections: Heroic, Normal, and Pre-Raid. Each section contains all of the trinkets from that difficulty and the 2 BiS from the previous difficulty simulated using the profile for the respective difficulty. In the case of normal mode, it also includes LFR items.
Spoiler: show
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Stat scaling! I wanted to know if the stat priority changes as our gear changes... well, it's complicated. It does seem that mastery pulls ahead further and haste falls behind further the better your gear gets, but for some reason Crit went significantly up and Hit/Exp went significantly down in the T14N profile. Overall I'd say Mastery > Hit/Exp > Crit > Haste is still a good guideline, but if you want optimal results you'll probably have to sim your own character. Feel free to start by prioritize Hit/Exp over Mastery, it's not really a loss until you start picking up raid gear. Values below:
Spoiler: show
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Talent scaling! I wanted to know if how good each talent is changes as you gear, and by how much. For the most part, they don't seem to change much at all. You can see that NV and HotW flipflop by a non-negligible amount, but that could change once we've got the action list more thoroughly optimized. The values below are T14H and Pre-Raid respectively:
Spoiler: show
DISCLAIMER: The rotation is not optimized for anything but Soul of the Forest and Dream of Cenarius, so these talent results are NOT completely accurate.
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That's what I've got for now, hope it was informative!
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Etapicx » Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:39 am

Now when Wrath is buffed with 9% will this make HotW more appealing? And i am not on the beta but can someone give me numbers on Wrath spamming during HotW?
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:20 pm

With a weapon swap and both of my agi trinkets proc'd I was able to reach 150k dps on beta pior to this fix. This was in ungemmed unenchanted 483 PVP gear. With the buff I only see this damage going up. I still think this is going to be nerfed pretty hard. Doing 3x the damage for 45 seconds is pretty crazy and I just don't see it sticking around.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Etapicx » Fri Sep 21, 2012 2:05 pm

Okay it will be interesting to see how this ends up like i am currently not a fan boy off DoC but if it turns out to be the best then i supose i have to get used to it :-)
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:06 am

So I did some napkin math and the HotW active in T14H gear would be 139k DPS without factoring in any procs after the Wrath buff. Definitely seems on the strong side.

On a mission to get this implemented in the sim but I'm not very familiar with the code and I'm having trouble getting things to work :|

I did find out that the non-balance HotW bonus is a simple 6x spell damage multiplier, and non-feral bonus seems to be something like triple agility. If anyone has any information on what exactly HotW active does for each bonus that would be helpful.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:27 pm

@aggixx

I realize you are probably hip deep in working on the HotW proc changes but I was wondering if you played with optimizing the Rip during BitW when not using DoC.

Something like:

Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
virmens_bite_potion,if=!talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.tigers_fury.up&combo_points>=5&target.health.pct<=25&target.time_to_die>30
rip,if=!talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.tigers_fury.up&combo_points>=5&buff.virmens_bite_potion.up&dot.rip.multiplier<tick_multiplier&target.health.pct<=25&target.time_to_die>30


I am not sure how to ensure that TF is up for the Rip given its 6 second window (not as much of an issue with DoC since it goes off at 4 combo points). Can we put in a check for the potion being available? Then we could hold off on the TF until we hit 5 combo points, and then use the potion + the Rip - although we would likely be wasting energy and/or combo points to get there.

Edit: this is a real pain to model. Has anyone recently verified that this issue still exists (the lack of refreshing the snapshot on Rip being updated by FB during BitW)?

Edit2: I just tested this on live and it is still happening

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:28 pm

I finally posted about FB not taking new snapshots: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic ... age=46#901

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby RareBeast » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:25 pm

Just wanted to make sure that the change that made shred a better filler than rake recently also made mangle a better filler than rake for fights that can only be fought from in front of the boss.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:56 pm

RareBeast wrote:Just wanted to make sure that the change that made shred a better filler than rake recently also made mangle a better filler than rake for fights that can only be fought from in front of the boss.


As far as I know, yes. But I can't honestly say we simmed that. Either way it will be close.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:50 pm

@aggixx - I was thinking about your suggestion to dynamically calculate when to overwrite a Rip during BitW. I came up with the following formula (more or less based on out napkin math last night):

First, I am going to express this in Ovale terms using existing functions in the latest script:
Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
AddFunction MinRatioForRipOverwrite
{
    if TimeUntilTargetIsDead()> 120 1.12
    {.002*{180 - TimeUntilTargetIsDead()}} + 1.0
}

if TimeUntilTargetIsDead() >=60 and ComboPoints() >= 5 and BITWRange() and RipTickDamageRatio() > MinRatioForRipOverwrite() Spell(RIP)


What this does:
If time until the target is dead is greater than 2 minutes, and you are in BitW, it will "opportunistically" overwrite a Rip for a minimum 12% gain.
As the time ticks down to 60 seconds, the ratio moves from 1.12 at 120 seconds to 1.24 at 60 seconds left. It will not overwrite a Rip when there is less than 60 seconds left (although that is easily changed).

Your napkin math last night suggested that a 25% damage gain for overwriting Rip at 60 seconds time to die was a DPS gain, so this is consistent with that.

The numbers are picked so that we will pick up potion and/or TF gains when there is a lot of time left, and later on we will still pick up a DoC proc and/or anything that is substantial.

We can do some approximation in simc. We get close on the "RipTickDamageRatio()" with tick_multiplier/dot.rip.multiplier, so we could use these two lines:
Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
actions+=/rip,if=combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>120&target.health.pct<=25&tick_multiplier/dot.rip.multiplier>1.12
actions+=/rip,if=combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>=60&target.time_to_die<=120&target.health.pct<=25&tick_multiplier/dot.rip.multiplier>(1+.002*(180-target.time_to_die))


We can refine this by varying the min and max time to dies, the .002 to change the slope, and the 180 to change the magnitude (in concert with the slope). Using a linear function makes this easy to model, and is something we can measure and implement.

Edit: those two lines replace this line in the simc script:
Spoiler: show
Code: Select all
actions+=/rip,if=combo_points>=5&buff.virmens_bite_potion.up&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&dot.rip.multiplier<tick_multiplier&target.health.pct<=25&target.time_to_die>30

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:16 pm

Looks like good solutions all around, nice job :D
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:17 pm

When things settle down we should take another pass through the rotation now that we can see it play out on a target dummy. As a side note, it will be easy for us to use the Ovale script to tell us if they change the BitW FB Rip refreshes. I can easily change the display on my test icons to display the tick damage and we can watch how that changes (or doesn't change) as we apply FBs with varying procs up.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby p3lim » Wed Sep 26, 2012 6:32 am

Thrash periodic damage has been increased by 60%.


This may enforce the Thrash mixin a bit stronger

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Sep 26, 2012 12:23 pm

p3lim wrote:
Thrash periodic damage has been increased by 60%.


This may enforce the Thrash mixin a bit stronger


For sure, we actually may be interested in trying to maintain it with as high as an uptime as possible on single target. Just speculation for now.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:50 am

@aggixx - discussion of your whisper to me earlier about the Ovale Rake clipping logic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=857&start=25#p8661

I put it in the Ovale thread to remind me that I needed to do something to the script, but as I wrote it I realized that it applies to simc also (not to mention I also realized we could do something similar to the logic I put together for Rip refreshing during BitW).

Will you have some time to do some simulation work in a few days? Perhaps over the weekend? I am not sure how aggressively you will be raiding.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Etapicx » Tue Oct 02, 2012 5:25 am

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This is done with either DoC NV and HotW is asume.

As far as i know HotW tend to be the best damage talent but we can't get it simulated in Simcraft. Therefor i wonder with the use effect of HotW are SofT really better then FoN in a long fight since we for 45 seconds (6min CD) do not use any finishers at all.

Also what stats are we looking at with a build FoN+HotW will Mastery still be best or dose it go Haste->Crit/Mastery->Hit/Expertise cap since i found out that HotW makes you hit capped i was still in the thought that Expertise+Hit rating=HotW spell hit cap because that was the old tooltip. FoN decreases the value of mastery and HotW with the use effect should as well since we dont benefit from mastery at all.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Jazdia » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:37 am

Hey there Aggixx.

I noted that you had been working on getting HotW simmed with regards to implementing an equivalent to weapon swapping and wrath spam.
I was wondering if you had any success doing this.

I'm attempting to get stat weightings for the EJ feral lead post for each combination of T4 and T6 talents, but as of yet I have been unable to get HotW simmed properly.
Leafkiller mentioned to me that you had been doing some work on it and may have something to add so I was wondering if you happened to have stats weightings on HotW combined with other talents or, even better, a way to get simC properly running with it.

Thanks!

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:44 pm

FoN decreases the value of mastery and HotW with the use effect should as well since we dont benefit from mastery at all.

I don't believe this is the case. The tree's scale off of AP and to a small degree crit. As our rotation doesn't change at all using them, our favored stats arn't going to change either. Mastery will still be better as most of our damage will com from bleeds no the FoN trees.

Just read what you wrote again. My comments are in regard to FoN only. I still think the HotW on use is going to get nerfed real soon, so don't get to comfy with trying to eak out 1 more Wrath at the cost of our bleeds for the rest of the fight.

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