5.0.5. Feral Stat Priority

[CalliatTN Profile]

Hmm if you're Dought, then i think crit is stronger. It's only by 2-3k dps, but nonetheless, stronger. Looking at the Spirit Kings encounter, as of now Dought US is nr.1 with 67151 DPS, and he has a mastery of only 1784, in other words nothing. His crit however is a whopping 5797.
Last night when my guild killed Spirit Kings i ranked 2 with 63873 DPS(already down to 6th ;_; QQ) with 4922 mastery and 3967 crit.

Now, the funny thing is, wrath is only 24% of his dmg whilst it is 27.5% of mine. As you have much more crit than me, you should have better wraths, but i did 600k more dmg with my wraths. The reason could be that you didn't get to use your BL to the fullest, as i did. Please reply when you got BL and wether you used it to the fullest, or was interrupted for something. (I had to do 1 tranq in my second HotW).

Now here's another funny thing: we have almost the same uptime on both rip 76,6-76,2% and rake 82-82%, however your total bleed dmg is higher than mine. This is probably just the difference in uptime though, as i have sliiightly less.

While you don't seem to lose any dmg on the bleeds, i still doubt that crit > mastery, simply because stacking crit causes you to become very dependant on constanly being smacking the boss, as it boosts your autoattacfk significantly. That is just not very good in MV, as many of the bosses gives you downtime due to mechanics, but on the bosses where you have high uptime on you autos, like this one, your autoattack alone gives you increased dmg.

So without really concluding anything new, im gonna wrap this post up, since it became a lot longer that i mean it to be xD And please reply on the BL thing if you read this Dought

~ Calliat

[kaiadam Profile]

Yeah, I'm Dought. I actually didn't get to use HoTW during hero, because we saved hero for the mind control guy and I wanted to get two HoTWs off. And of course the first guy makes me move to avoid his stupid shockwave, so yeah, my hotws sucked there.

[CalliatTN Profile]

Well then, if you didn't get to use HotW at all during BL, then i think crit is actually far better than mastery for any fight but multidottings. Are there any other current raid encounters which allow you to multidot except on dogs guards?

[Cerise Profile]

Jazdia over at Elitist Jerks* made a very rough implementation of HotW in SimulationCraft. His stat priorty findings are agility -> weapon dps -> haste -> crit -> mastery -> hit/exp. Of course, I have no idea how accurate his HotW implementation is. Has anyone tried running a haste setup?

* http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t130906-fer ... a_5_0_4_a/

[Etapicx Profile]

My result trying simcraft with Wrath

Spoiler: show

The stat values seems to be in the same priority even how i put them into the calculator The test was runned at 25k Iterations and 600 seconds (10 mins) That means that HotW is used twice hence mastery being low i'd try simulate where HotW is only once and end the test right when HotW is available again.

The code i was using during the test.

Spoiler: show

Code: Select all

actions.precombat=flask,type=spring_blossoms
actions.precombat+=/food,type=sea_mist_rice_noodles
actions.precombat+=/mark_of_the_wild,if=!aura.str_agi_int.up
actions.precombat+=/healing_touch,if=!buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled
actions.precombat+=/symbiosis,class=shaman
actions.precombat+=/cat_form
actions.precombat+=/savage_roar
actions.precombat+=/snapshot_stats
actions.precombat+=/virmens_bite_potion

actions=virmens_bite_potion,if=buff.bloodlust.react|(target.health.pct<=25&buff.berserk.up)|target.time_to_die<=40
actions+=/auto_attack
actions+=/skull_bash_cat
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&buff.predatory_swiftness.remains<=1&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&(buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down|(buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.stack=1&!buff.omen_of_clarity.up))
actions+=/healing_touch,if=prev.natures_swiftness
actions+=/use_item,name=eternal_blossom_grips,sync=tigers_fury
actions+=/use_item,name=choker_of_the_unleashed_storm
actions+=/wrath,if=buff.choker_of_the_unleashed_storm.up
actions+=/tigers_fury,if=energy<=35&!buff.omen_of_clarity.react
actions+=/berserk,if=buff.tigers_fury.up|(target.time_to_die<15&cooldown.tigers_fury.remains>6)
actions+=/natures_vigil,if=buff.berserk.up&talent.natures_vigil.enabled
actions+=/incarnation,if=buff.berserk.up&talent.incarnation.enabled
actions+=/berserking
actions+=/savage_roar,if=buff.savage_roar.remains<=1|(buff.savage_roar.remains<=3&combo_points>0&(buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down|combo_points<5))
actions+=/faerie_fire,if=debuff.weakened_armor.stack<3
actions+=/natures_swiftness,if=!buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&talent.natures_swiftness.enabled&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>action.healing_touch.gcd&target.Fluffy_Pillow.health.pct<=25)))
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>action.healing_touch.gcd&target.Fluffy_Pillow.health.pct<=25)))
actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=combo_points>=5&dot.rip.ticking&target.health.pct<=25
actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=combo_points>=1&dot.rip.ticking&dot.rip.remains<=2&target.health.pct<=25
actions+=/ravage,extend_rip=1,if=dot.rip.ticking&dot.rip.remains<=4
actions+=/shred,extend_rip=1,if=dot.rip.ticking&dot.rip.remains<=4
actions+=/natures_swiftness,if=!buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&talent.natures_swiftness.enabled&target.Fluffy_Pillow.health.pct>25&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.time_to_die>=(6+action.healing_touch.gcd)&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains<(2+action.healing_touch.gcd)&(buff.berserk.up|target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains<=cooldown.tigers_fury.remains))))
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.time_to_die>=(6+action.healing_touch.gcd)&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains<(2+action.healing_touch.gcd)&(buff.berserk.up|target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains<=cooldown.tigers_fury.remains))))
actions+=/rip,if=combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>=6&dot.rip.remains<2.0&(buff.berserk.up|dot.rip.remains<=cooldown.tigers_fury.remains)
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>(5+action.healing_touch.gcd)&buff.savage_roar.remains>=(1+action.healing_touch.gcd)&buff.berserk.remains>action.healing_touch.gcd)))
actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=combo_points>=5&dot.rip.remains>5.0&buff.savage_roar.remains>=1.0&buff.berserk.up
actions+=/savage_roar,if=combo_points>=5&target.time_to_die>=8.5&dot.rip.remains<=12&buff.savage_roar.remains<=(dot.rip.remains+4)
actions+=/natures_swiftness,if=!buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(target.health.pct<=25|(dot.rip.remains>4&set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee))&(((target.Fluffy_Pillow.time_to_die>=(8.5+action.healing_touch.gcd)&buff.tigers_fury.up)))
actions+=/natures_swiftness,if=!buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(target.health.pct<=25|(dot.rip.remains>4&set_bonus.tier14_4pc_melee))&(((target.time_to_die>=(8.5+action.healing_touch.gcd)&dot.rake.remains<(3.0+action.healing_touch.gcd)&(buff.berserk.remains>action.healing_touch.gcd|(cooldown.tigers_fury.remains+0.8)>=dot.rake.remains))))
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(target.Fluffy_Pillow.health.pct<=25|target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>4)&(((target.Fluffy_Pillow.time_to_die>=(8.5+action.healing_touch.gcd)&(buff.tigers_fury.remains>=action.healing_touch.gcd|(cooldown.tigers_fury.remains>21&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rake.remains<(12.0+action.healing_touch.gcd))))))
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(target.Fluffy_Pillow.health.pct<=25|target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>4)&(((target.Fluffy_Pillow.time_to_die>=(8.5+action.healing_touch.gcd)&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rake.remains<(3.0+action.healing_touch.gcd)&(buff.berserk.remains>action.healing_touch.gcd|(cooldown.tigers_fury.remains+0.8)>=target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rake.remains))))
actions+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die>=8.5&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.up&(dot.rake.multiplier<=tick_multiplier)&!prev.rake
actions+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die>=8.5&dot.rake.remains<9.0&!talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.tigers_fury.up&(dot.rake.multiplier<tick_multiplier)
actions+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die>=8.5&dot.rake.remains<3.0&(buff.berserk.up|(cooldown.tigers_fury.remains+0.8)>=dot.rake.remains)
actions+=/ravage,if=buff.omen_of_clarity.react
actions+=/shred,if=buff.omen_of_clarity.react
actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=(target.time_to_die<=4&combo_points>=5)|target.time_to_die<=1
actions+=/healing_touch,if=buff.predatory_swiftness.up&talent.dream_of_cenarius.enabled&buff.dream_of_cenarius_damage.down&(((combo_points>=5&target.Fluffy_Pillow.dot.rip.remains>=(8.0+action.healing_touch.gcd)&buff.savage_roar.remains>=(action.healing_touch.gcd))))
actions+=/ferocious_bite,if=combo_points>=5&dot.rip.remains>=8.0&buff.savage_roar.up
actions+=/ravage,if=(buff.tigers_fury.up|buff.berserk.up)
actions+=/ravage,if=((combo_points<5&dot.rip.remains<3.0)|(combo_points=0&buff.savage_roar.remains<2))
actions+=/ravage,if=cooldown.tigers_fury.remains<=3.0
actions+=/ravage,if=target.time_to_die<=8.5
actions+=/ravage,if=energy.time_to_max<=1.0
actions+=/shred,if=(buff.tigers_fury.up|buff.berserk.up)
actions+=/shred,if=((combo_points<5&dot.rip.remains<3.0)|(combo_points=0&buff.savage_roar.remains<2))
actions+=/shred,if=cooldown.tigers_fury.remains<=3.0
actions+=/shred,if=target.time_to_die<=8.5
actions+=/shred,if=energy.time_to_max<=1.0
actions+=/feral_spirit

[Cerise Profile]

How much DPS do you get out of that Simcraft result Etapicx?

[Etapicx Profile]

How much DPS do you get out of that Simcraft result Etapicx?

I've played around alot with the stats to see how it was changing depending on gears currently now i am simulating on my characters gear to see the difference with a Haste build and a Mastery build and the stat priority changes when you use HotW 2 times and only 1 time my computer is really... really slow and i've alot to do today so probably tonight i've enough results.

[Cerise Profile]

Cool

I have a core i7 +16 gb ram if you need more computing power. Just send me the profile (+ some instructions lol).

Why is there no 64bit simcraft executable..

[aggixx Profile]

Cool

I have a core i7 +16 gb ram if you need more computing power. Just send me the profile (+ some instructions lol).

Why is there no 64bit simcraft executable..

Because there doesn't need to be? I thought you could run as many threads as you want with the 32-bit client...

@Etapicx: Either you or I are doing something drastically wrong because those results are literally nothing like mine.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 7hotw.html

That sim is one I did a while ago and it's actually using DoC reforges and gear. IIRC it picks up another 1k+ DPS or so if you use the right gear/enchants/reforges. I've messed with HotW weights and different gear levels, and it basically comes down to:

Haste >= Crit > Mastery > Hit = Exp

which you could say is the polar opposite of the DoC stat priority.

[Etapicx Profile]

Cool

I have a core i7 +16 gb ram if you need more computing power. Just send me the profile (+ some instructions lol).

Why is there no 64bit simcraft executable..

Because there doesn't need to be? I thought you could run as many threads as you want with the 32-bit client...

@Etapicx: Either you or I are doing something drastically wrong because those results are literally nothing like mine.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 7hotw.html

That sim is one I did a while ago and it's actually using DoC reforges and gear. IIRC it picks up another 1k+ DPS or so if you use the right gear/enchants/reforges. I've messed with HotW weights and different gear levels, and it basically comes down to:

Haste >= Crit > Mastery > Hit = Exp

which you could say is the polar opposite of the DoC stat priority.

We don't have the same script during the simulation nor do we have the same used on the simulations.
When i ran my simulation at 350 seconds aka You can only use HotW once and then ending the combat when you can use it again Crit climbed atop in priority. One thing that i saw for example was that your test was using Potion for HotW and mine didn't.
But in generall my thought was. Haste->Crit---->Hit/Exp cap->Mastery
I don't really know how my test had mastery below Hit and Exp cap that is maybe a gear question.

[Cerise Profile]

Because there doesn't need to be? I thought you could run as many threads as you want with the 32-bit client...

You can. What concerns me is memory usage; a 32-bit client can only use 4 gb ram.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... 7hotw.html

These simulationcraft results show a strong resemblance to the one Jazdia posted (of HotW+SotF). Both show Agi -> Haste -> Crit -> Mastery -> Exp = Hit.

I don't really know how my test had mastery below Hit and Exp cap that is maybe a gear question.

Did you run your profile on the T14H BIS gear setup? (Your results say 'T14H' on them but that might as well be because you didn't change the title page)
Did you include that HotW makes you (spell) hitcapped for it's duration?


I also have another question. A few weeks ago Agixx compared the DPS ranking of all our talent combinations. HotW's implementation was limited to it's passive effect back then. This was the result:


As you can see it shows HotW_SotF and HotW_FoN right on top of each other. (1 dps difference).
I wonder how SotF and FoN compare right now, with the fixed HotW implementation?

[Etapicx Profile]

Given that FoN and HotW both 'don't like' mastery, and we reforge to obtain optimal HotW results, is it possible that FoN now pulls ahead of SotF?

My thought that SofT is being beated by FoN is that during the whole duration of HotW we do not benefit from SofT at all. And as we can see it is 1dps diffrence without the lost of SofT FoN will still be benefitical during HotW.

[Cerise Profile]

I've taken the HotW_SotF profile Agixx posted on Elitist Jerks yesterday (this one: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1086121/simc_pr ... otw_2.html) and ran it on my own machine. I've tried to keep all settings the same to minimize experimental difference between his and my results.
Settings:
Build: 16057.
Iterations: 25000.
Fight length: 360-540.
Buffs: all.
Debuffs: all.
Scaling: Str, Agi, AP, Exp, Hit, Crit, Haste, Mastery, Wdps.

He gets 126241 dps and finds Agi = Wdps > Crit = Haste > Str = AP = Mastery > Exp = Hit.

Using his exact profile, I get these results: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/results_ ... w=6aa32908
125213 dps and Agi > Wdps > Haste > Crit > Mastery = AP = Str > Exp = Hit.
There is a difference of 1028 DPS between his results and mine. I don't know what's causing this or if this is normal.

Then I used his profile again, this time I changed SoTF to FoN. (This is the only setting I changed.) I get these results: https://dl-web.dropbox.com/get/results_ ... w=7b74fcba
124141 dps and Agi > Wdps > Haste > Crit > Str > AP > Mastery > Exp = Hit.
Between my HotW_SotF run and my HotW_FoN run, I find a difference of 1072 DPS.

1. If it's normal that there are small differences between two runs of the exact same profile, then 1028 dps is within the margin of error and hence 1072 dps is within the margin of error, thus there is no significant dps difference between FoN and SotF using this gear and this rotation.*

2. If it's not normal that two runs of the exact same profile give small differences, then these numbers are exact rather than approximations, and hence FoN is very slightly behind SoTF using this gear and this rotation.

*In order to test this hypothesis, I should really run the same profile n (>30, infinity<) times, save the dps and calculate the margin of error over the total runs. However, I'm leaning towards option 2, cause simulationcraft itself reports the margin of error to be around 36 dps.

[Cerise Profile]

Another question I have is whether the current rotation in the HotW profile is optimized for SotF usage? (More aggressive FB's to increase the energy return on said talent, for example) If that's the case, FoN might pull ahead if the rotation were re-optimized.

[Leafkiller Profile]

@Cerise - you asked a lot of different questions.

First - the 1k dps difference is due to a setting that aggixx is using in his simc setup. I don't recall which setting is. For the purposes of your testing, compare the results you are getting on your setup to each other. The simc reported margins of error are what you should be using.

The profile has been optimized for SotF. However, there are conditionals on the optimizations so they will not interfere with an FoN profile. Specifically, these tests show up on the two key lines (one for SR and one for FB) "(talent.soul_of_the_forest.enabled|buff.berserk.up)"

[Terias Profile]

People reporting hotw hotfixed on the general forums - can anyone confirm?

[Tinderhoof Profile]

The logon servers are offline so not yet.

[Terias Profile]

I made it in, but I honestly haven't used hotw since beta, so I'm not sure what numbers I'm supposed to be seeing with it.

[Tinderhoof Profile]

I have been saying that no one should get used to this cause it was going to get a nerf. I don't see why anyone would be surprised by this.

[Terias Profile]

No cd's, no buffs, no sp weapon, 14.6k agi - seeing 120k non crits.

If it's a hotfix it might not be rolled to all servers yet.

[Leafkiller Profile]

Damn. I just tested my sim script fix for Rake on the HotW profile and got an extra 1k dps (the sim script was only clipping Rakes with DoC enabled - see my experimental rotation thread for more details).

Obviously we will need to re-evaluate after we get some hard data on the changes.

Edit: My "experimental" script is now based on the 505-2 T14H script with the HotW changes included along with some fixes/refinements I have made. I just posted it here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=879

[aggixx Profile]

I made it in, but I honestly haven't used hotw since beta, so I'm not sure what numbers I'm supposed to be seeing with it.

Your wraths should be hitting 6 times harder with Heart of the Wild than without.

[Cerise Profile]

Well I just managed 61.5k dps on Spirit Kings, so it wasn't fixed then. That was perhaps an hour ago.

[aggixx Profile]

Feral -> Balance was not changed.

[Cerise Profile]

@Cerise - you asked a lot of different questions...

Thanks for the answers Leaf. I'll PM Agixx and ask him his exact simc settings.