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Elegon

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Re: Elegon

Postby Dabeasty » Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:08 am

Typically, how many sparks do you end up with on each side? How do you deal with them?

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Re: Elegon

Postby kaiadam » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:15 pm

We had a total of 25 cosmic sparks on our kill, so that's approximately 6 per side per phase 3.

We more or less just stay on our sides and run towards the boss when the platform comes up, and when all the sparks are around the middle, they die in a hail of aoe.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Wed Oct 24, 2012 6:04 pm

Are people still implementing this HotW tactic with the Wrath spamming from the get-go as of this week (10/23) and is HoTw even viable for this fight or would you be better off with SotF/Nv for Elegon?

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Re: Elegon

Postby Sorcerer » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:12 pm

Incarnation + NV looks more appealing for HC on paper, probably thats what I am gonna roll with tomorrow or sunday. 4Kings so f**** close.

On paper p1 DPS doesnt matter, p2 dps matters a little, p3 burst matters the most.
Thats aside of spark dps. Sotf does not let you burst in either of this scenarios compared to Inc + NV. In my 484 gear probably during execute phase I'd look for around 200k DPS on normal boss, multiply this by sparks.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:47 pm

I think that really depends on how long the burn phase is. Incarnation burst is over very quick. I wonder at what point SotF takes over being better damage. I suspect if the burn phase is over 30 seconds Incarnation will still lose out. I do think that I will try and take Nature's Vigil tonight to help do some extra healing in the final phase (if we see it tonight). I can report results later tonight about how it seemed to work.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:56 pm

I'm thinking about SotF and NV myself. Thanks and post the results!

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Re: Elegon

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:45 pm

Petty disapointed with NV so far. The healing is usually no more then 400k per attempt. The damage output is so so. I am going to try DoC and compare and contrast.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:58 am

DoC on this fight I think is going to be better. Because we have some many frinkin target swaps DoC'd Rake is carrying me. NV heals are very weak and I don't like the DPS gain enough to make it worth it for burst.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Dysheki » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:46 am

I would think that DoC would be a higher overall damage talent with NV closing the gap more than a normal fight but still behind. Based entirely on conjecture and nothing else, lol.

However, for 10H I ended up using HotW because Tranq heals for so much (did over 5 million) in the final phase. We were never even close to the enrage timer, we just needed to survive.
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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:34 pm

Well, seeing as how I'm still sitting @ around 108K+ BEFORE the burn phase w/ the stacks and hero I'll just keep HoTw for the tranq to help our healers :p
Gonna try to get logs up tonight, WoL has been screwy the last couple of days

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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:38 pm

Just out of curiousity, how do you guys get the best use out of DoC? Do you pop Nature's Swiftness and use the next 2 buffed melee attacks on a bleed? (Does it buff the bleed throughout it's duration like savage roar/tf) or is it strictly for straight dmg output ie shred/mangle and such?

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Re: Elegon

Postby kaiadam » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:07 pm

If you're progressing on this fight, HoTW is still king, especially for 10m.

1.) You pop it during the first phase 2 (maybe on 3rd wave of charges.) In 10m heroic, charges have 740k hp. That's roughly 4 wraths, so it'll take you about 7.5 seconds to kill a spark, meaning that you should be able to solo a spark up to and including the 7th wave. If you get any help from aoe damage (hunter multishot, pestilence, warlock crap, etc.) you can take care of "your" spark up until the 8th wave, which I don't think any guild has done up to this point. You simply cannot duplicate this effect with DoC (final rake ticks twice on an 8th wave add ...) and highly questionable with NV. If you're doing normal mode, you should be able to solo up to the 11th or 12th wave with HoTW active, but chances are the raid has failed at another spark spawn far before that point.

2.) Burn phase takes around 40-60 seconds in almost every log I've seen. Guess which cooldown lasts 45 seconds? Which you can then follow up with a 10 second berserk? HoTW is going to be the best burst you'll see in a 40 sec - 1 min window, still, while under the effects of heroism.

3.) HoTW hurricane is best aoe in the game. You will decimate cosmic sparks when they start floating in for the final burn phase with it.

4.) HoTW tranquility is best burst heal in the game. You can do upwards of 4 million healing with a single tranq. Definitely useful at the end of the final phase when all healer cooldowns are exhausted and everyone's low.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Viray » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:12 pm

If you pop HotW on the pull, you'll be able to use it second time in the last cycle, when it's needed the most...
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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:58 pm

Thanks for all of the input! Much obliged :)

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Re: Elegon

Postby Moonsuken » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:59 pm

I'll try some things out tonight and hopefully will be able to post some logs. Cheers.

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Re: Elegon

Postby ellorien » Wed Jan 02, 2013 10:53 pm

Is HOTW wrath spam still a good idea for the orbs now that it's been nerfed? I'd like to give it a try if so.

I usually sit there storing up energy and just autoattacking boss while waiting on orb spawn as barely get it down in time before it hits the pillar. (I also clear stacks every orb, and don't use TF until the last orb wave we do, which is the 4th.) It feels rather sub optimal, but it seemed like the only way I'd have enough to burst the orb down without being energy starved.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Jan 02, 2013 11:02 pm

HotW is still an option, but the cooldown will only last you 3 waves. If you think you can change gears fast enough it can work for you. What will be your plan for the second phase with the orbs though? HotW won't be off cooldown for that time.

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Re: Elegon

Postby feralminded » Thu Jan 03, 2013 11:36 am

Man I hate asking for help, but I hate being terribad more and I need help on this fight. The last tier I kitty DPSed was ICC where I could consistently top 100 if not not top 50 most of the fights. I spent the first couple months of this tier tanking on a warrior and then tanking on my druid but things changed and I am back on my kitty (my favorite wow class/role).

Semi-valid Excuses
#1. I have to use HoTW on this fight for the tranquility in P3. Also due to #3 I find DoC a bit beyond me most fights but I can and have still ranked HoTW on other fights.
#2. I have to symbiosis dispersion since I am a soaker. I soak twice this fight.
#3. I am the raid leader so I don't have 100% attention available (I know, kitty is the wrong class to raid lead with but oh well).

I am a solid player so I (conceitedly) believe I *should* be able to rank on every fight. My raid is a bit behind the curve gearwise (I'm 492, no sha weapon) so I don't expect top 100 but I kind of hate myself if I can't rank top 200 on everything. I have ranked on enough fights this tier as kitty to expect more but Elegon REALLY eludes me and I am consistently epeening around 50% whereas most other fights I don't die on (I die a lot due to excuse #3) I can hit 80% or better (though there's plenty others I'm still very bad at).

Here's my epeen for normal elegon
Our heroic elegon kill. 110k dps whereas DPS bot wants me at 160k. I know the top 200 parses are skewed on this fight because as your raid gets better at this you get more and more debuffs on elegon and therefore your P3 burst goes higher and higher ... but that gap still feels pretty staggering. Honestly the gap between me and our Paladin hurts more (he's at 155k) since on other fights were are usually neck-in-neck.

What I'm doing/trying to do
P1: I have sort of assigned myself to focus on elegon instead of adds since ranged is better at it and I wanted to feel less bad about my performance. I open with a standard rotation here and zerk runs outs just in time for me to charge/soak the first add. The second P1 is usually the same though I do splash some bleeds and light AoE here on the adds before heading to elegon. That said I have been running out to clear my stacks during this phase but on heroic I'm not sure I take any actual damage so is it still necessary?

P2: This is where I *feel* I am doing the worst. We go for 5-6 waves each P2 and I am almost always the weakest link and require a lot of help from the tank or healers. I try and keep rake up 100% on elegon here but don't have the energy for much else outside of the first couple waves as I can't reliably kill the sparks without 100% energy on my own. Even then towards the end I can't usually do it without TF as well for shred/bite spam. I do try and start each wave with a thrash to dot up elegon and my side plus buff my shreds. I feel like I have terrible Savage Roar uptime here and this is probably compounding my issues. I feel I have 0 chance of ever ripping elegon though outside of maybe the first couple waves as I'm either pooling energy for the spark or trying to get a roar up.

P3: This is our lust/burst and it's not hard to get right. That said I do have to tranq here towards the end when the healers are dry so I know that's going to cost me some DPS but it's usually way after zerk and pot and everything falls off so it can't cost me too much.

I know this is a long, meandering post but I am bad at this fight and I hate it. I appreciate any feedback/help.
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Re: Elegon

Postby Instaqueues » Thu Jan 03, 2013 12:17 pm

I can offer 1 quick thing to help, and I know it won't help your DPS issue, but it might smooth the orbs out just a bit. On the last groups, I would suggest not thrashing. If your orb is hitting when it's not supposed to, it's a DPS loss (cause you don't get those precious seconds on elegon while the last group is going to pillars). The first orbs I can get by with emptying energy on Elegon, including rake and 3-5CP rip. I rake the orbs then continue to shred, and FB if I have to, otherwise SR. On such a short time for orbs, I think Rake/Shred will give you much better DPE than Thrash (to your single orb).

I also noticed you had 3 Healing Touches cast. You should easily be around ~30 give or take some. With no buffs, these are 100-170k instant spot heals that can heal DPS (and save healers so much worry). I know that won't replace a HotW tranq, but perhaps if you could help spot heal, your healers would have more mana by phase 3, and be able to get by with no tranq. Just a thought.

#showtooltip Healing Touch
/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",0)
/cast [target=mouseover,exists,nodead] [target=focus,exists,nodead]; Healing Touch
/run SetCVar("autoUnshift",1)

Try this macro for your healing touches, it won't un-shift you from cat form, and it uses a mouseover target, or focus if you have no mouseover, or yourself if you have no focus, so you can easily spot heal with a push of a button. Also, there are no innervates cast. This, also can be used on a mouse over macro to help you

/cast [target=mouseover,exists,nodead] [target=focus,exists,nodead]; Innervate

Then use your cat form macro to get back in cat form (or add it into this, although they're both GCDs).

You could get 2-3 innervates in, providing 20-30% mana for healers. Getting out of the tranq role will help your DPS quite a bit, so helping healers will be your start.

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Re: Elegon

Postby feralminded » Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:00 pm

Yeah a month or so ago when I was trying hard to do DoC I was much better about my Predator's Swiftness procs (I gave up realizing I personally couldn't DoC well and Raid lead and HoTW was close enough and offered the super tranq) but these days unless I see my HP low I generally ignore them and Nature's swiftness. I agree my utilization is very low on these things. I am definitely pretty bad at my role right now and probably am focusing too much on DPS and should focus more on hybrid. I do have hover macros for all of my stuff so I don't have a good excuse as to why I'm not healing the raid. Innervate is one that I guess fell off the radar for me because last time I played cat (ICC), my innervate was a serious joke. Thanks for pointing that out.

As for the thrash it at least "feels" better to thrash on 3-5 targets for 50 energy instead of raking on 1 for 35. I mean you're right, rake is way better for my one orb but on the scale of the raid it feels worse ... but rake is kind of crazy good so I may be overthinking this.
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Re: Elegon

Postby Instaqueues » Thu Jan 03, 2013 6:53 pm

I think overall Thrash is better cause you keep DPS on the boss, but if the orb is your problem, I'd say spend all efforts getting that thing down. I try to use innervate early on, when a healer has just barely used any mana, that way it's up possibly 2 more times during the fight, but most of the time I only get 2 innervates off total (cause I slack too :D).

Nobody's DPS is high on a progression kill, and usually not the 2nd or 3rd time either. But after that, everybody should know their role, and your VOIP should be pretty quiet, except an occasional "using my healing CD" from a healer, or "dropping mana tide" etc.

I do think though, that if you were to help with HT throughout the entire fight, you wouldn't have to tranq. Healers can do amazing things when they have mana :D So anything that allows you to stay in cat form and not have to help them is a DPS gain. I could be wrong about the Thrash/Rake on the orb, After all, I'm still on normals, but I think I parsed top 30 for Elegon, and still don't thrash orbs (cause I don't want mine to hit). We only go to 4 orbs though, so it's a little different. If an orb hits early, my DPS can easily drop from 145-150k at the end, down to 120-130k at the end, because I didn't have that extra time to DPS during those last set of orbs.

Hope any of this has helped! You're in a tough spot playing feral and calling things out! Need to whip those raiders into shape so they can handle themselves! :)

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Re: Elegon

Postby feralminded » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:27 am

Well I managed to stay in the ~70-85% epeen range for most of the fights last night in HoF (though I spiked 90s for ambershaper ... Thrash + rake spam on 4-5 targets ftw). It's adequate but not where I want to be. At any rate my tank just took off for a semester so back to boring guardian (it's definitely the most boring tank right now). I appreciate the help guys and keep on pushing feral. I'll be back in my cat sooner or later and could use all the help I can get. :)
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Re: Elegon

Postby Fattycopjr » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:00 am

I'm not understanding, but as I browse parses I'm noticing some feral's thrash and their #2 dps ability. Are they just running around trashing energy charges as opposed to thrashing one + boss + rake?

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Re: Elegon

Postby Tinderhoof » Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:37 am

The adds and the energy charges both.

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Re: Elegon

Postby Vaporgriffin » Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:18 am

Fattycopjr wrote:I'm not understanding, but as I browse parses I'm noticing some feral's thrash and their #2 dps ability. Are they just running around trashing energy charges as opposed to thrashing one + boss + rake?


When all the energy charges come up initially, if you stand close to the boss, thrash can hit most, if not all of them before they start moving toward their pillars. When possible, I try to pool energy while Elegon is casting Draw Power in order to get a thrash up on all the energy charges before single-targetting mine. It gets harder to pull off toward the 4th and 5th charges on heroic, but it still helps.

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