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Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion and script

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:23 pm

@aggixx - there is a new release of simc, 505-2, that came out today. It should contain all of your HotW changes. However, the action priority list does not have the HotW specific changes you tested. Can you post a copy of your HotW action priority list?

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:16 pm

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby mineko » Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:14 pm

This may not be the place for this but I was reluctant to start a new thread just for this. Reading MMO Champion's list of spell changes, I came across this:
Ravage (Feral, Guardian) Ravage the target, causing 950% damage plus 78 (up from 750% damage plus 62) to the target and reducing the target's movement speed by 50% for 12 sec.

Which got me thinking, how much damage would ravage need to do in order for us to consider opening with it in PVE? Also, how much for it to be worth speccing into incarnation?

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Woem » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:29 pm

Is BitW phase Fb's snap shotting your buffs/modifiers again, or did I misread earlier posts.

Also assuming that refreshing rake @ 9 secs with TF up is still a dps gain. Would this be correct?

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Fri Oct 26, 2012 11:06 pm

Woem wrote:Is BitW phase Fb's snap shotting your buffs/modifiers again, or did I misread earlier posts.

Also assuming that refreshing rake @ 9 secs with TF up is still a dps gain. Would this be correct?


Last any of us checked FB was *not* refreshing the snapshot.

It is a dps up to refresh Rake anytime you can get a new Rake with at least a 12% gain on tick damage. This is the pertinent script conditional:
actions+=/rake,if=target.time_to_die-dot.rake.remains>3&tick_multiplier%dot.rake.multiplier>1.12

It may or may not be the case that you want to update Rake on TF as it depends on what buffed the Rake before (for example it could have been buffed by DoC, a potion or a trinket proc).

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Woem » Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:38 pm

Ahhh, so fresh rip up with all buffs going into BitW and then go nuts. Cheers

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:03 pm

Woem wrote:Ahhh, so fresh rip up with all buffs going into BitW and then go nuts. Cheers


With everything possible going including DoC, potion, etc. The script does it best to try and get a strong Rip going for BitW and also has logic to replace weaker Rips when possible.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby raffy » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:33 pm

When you guys do a simc run, to compare different trinkets, what kind of "target configuration" do you setup?

Do you set a fixed combat time? Or a fixed HP pool? In coding my own simulator, I've realized (but haven't tested) that a fixed combat time and recording the DPS seems inferior to a fixed HP and recording the kill time. This allows the bitw transition to be more dynamic and prevents spending too much time in the artificial time-based bitw phase.

If you set a combat time, how long?
If you set a HP pool, how large?

I'll be updating my thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=911 ) with my progress when I get home from work.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Caltiom » Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:58 pm

raffy wrote:When you guys do a simc run, to compare different trinkets, what kind of "target configuration" do you setup?

Do you set a fixed combat time? Or a fixed HP pool? In coding my own simulator, I've realized (but haven't tested) that a fixed combat time and recording the DPS seems inferior to a fixed HP and recording the kill time. This allows the bitw transition to be more dynamic and prevents spending too much time in the artificial time-based bitw phase.

If you set a combat time, how long?
If you set a HP pool, how large?

I'll be updating my thread ( viewtopic.php?f=3&t=911 ) with my progress when I get home from work.

SimulationCraft tries to do both by default:
It runs the first iteration ( ommited from the results ) with a fixed time, and records how much damage would have been done to the target. After that it uses this health number for the target, and ending the iteration when the target dies. The health is then readjusted after each iteration, with a dampening factor so that the target health becomes more and more stable.

I think it is quite important to use a fixed HP for simulations, because you otherwise have a bias in the "execute" phase of a fight. Many classes do more damage in this phase, but because that kills the enemy faster, the time spent on those last 20% is shorter than it would be with a fixed time simulation, thus decreasing the effectiveness of execute effects again.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby raffy » Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:01 pm

Where can I get the latest simc feral scripts? I see various links throughout the thread but nothing static.

Ideally, if I could pull the scripts by static url, that would be the best.

The simc syntax seems relatively straightforward so I plan on just adding a simc importer to my simulator, rather than just translating it myself, since you guys seem to change it frequently.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby raffy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:48 am

Also, I just noticed that energy costs under Berserk round differently when energy cost is an odd number.

Odd energy costs, round up, if the 10s digit is odd.

Skull Bash: 15 -> 8 (1 = odd, up)
Rake: 35 -> 18 (3 = odd, up)
Mangle: 35 -> 18 (3 = odd, up)

FB: 25 -> 12 (2 = even, down)
SR: 25 -> 12 (2 = even, down)
Swipe: 45 -> 22 (4 = even, down)
Ravage: 45 -> 22 (4 = even, down)

Code: Select all
berserk_cost = ((cost / 10 & 1) + cost) / 2) // as int math


I'm checking to see if this kind of rounding is used elsewhere.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Abranor » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:02 pm

Do Sim-C stat weights for HoTW only take into account the passive bonus? I'm assuming so, but seeing mastery sim lower than crit just unnerves me enough to ask.

I grasp how DoC builds buff the bleeds to make mastery the stronger stat.

I also think I understand how HotW, but I don't know that I'm right. Does it have to do with the talent buffing our agi making our innate crit higher, therefore the additive effect of crit ratting on top of the extra agi gives us more CPs to work with, so more finishers, etc...?

I'd really like to have a deeper understanding of the interaction if I'm wrong.

Thanks

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:06 pm

The flip flop of haste being good for HotW and Mastery being poor is totally due to the on use. As Mastery does not buff Wrath in anyway it now counts to buffing you though 5:15 seconds of every 6 minutes. Haste will help you cast more Wraths during the proc though. The most importent part being you might get one more cast in before your Pot or Trinket procs fall off. I do not know what the Haste breakpoint is for another tic of Tranq or Hurricane, but it could help.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby raffy » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:34 pm


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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Abranor » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Tinderhoof wrote:The flip flop of haste being good for HotW and Mastery being poor is totally due to the on use. As Mastery does not buff Wrath in anyway it now counts to buffing you though 5:15 seconds of every 6 minutes. Haste will help you cast more Wraths during the proc though. The most importent part being you might get one more cast in before your Pot or Trinket procs fall off. I do not know what the Haste breakpoint is for another tic of Tranq or Hurricane, but it could help.


So, noting this info, here is my situation. We're still learning the fights and I would say currently my skill level is not high enough to not screw up DoC (I'll keep trying, but this is a truth at the moment). Seeing as how HotW Wrath spam is more at a break even point with Cat Form DPS than it was... I spend most of my time in Cat Form only taking advantage of the passive bonus of HotW. In this situation, should I use DoC & SotF stat weights?

I'm trying to break through the learning curve, but currently I have to be honest with myself and do the best I can for my guild with the skill I can bring to the table.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:19 pm

If you arn't trying to squeeze a few more Wrath casts out you should stick to Mastery and Crit over Haste.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Abranor » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:13 pm

Tinderhoof, how about Hit and Expertise? Capping them just helps smooth the CP generation right? I noticed that you have caped Hit and Expertise, but I ran a sim w/ your armory import just to see what your stat weights looked like and I saw that it had stated Mastery = Crit > Hit = Exp = Haste. Is that a personal preference choice?

I guess maybe for heroic progression, misses can sometimes be the difference between a Win and a Loss?

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:57 pm



No. The latest rotation is in the top post of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=879

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:16 pm


It would be if we were to commit the script we've been working on into a SimC build, but it's definitely at the point where it would seem (even if it's not the truth in actuality) that is impossible to execute with addon aid. If that wasn't the case I probably would've committed it by now.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Tinderhoof » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:16 pm

I prefer capping hit/exp for a few reasons. As you pointed out it does make combo point generation smoother. It also has to do with how tight our rotation is. When I have 5 combo points and Rip is falling off and SR has 7 seconds left on it I REALLY don't want to miss with that Rip. As misses love to come in pairs it really sucks to have to refresh SR and have Rip still down. Outside of a Sim or being lucky I think 90% of folks will benefit more from Hit/Exp capping then not.

As to the suggestions of stats, SIMs do usually put our Hit/Exp lower then most others because we arn't GCD capped and we get energy refunds. While great in SIMs it tends to be less managable in real raiding. Being capped will provide more consistant results.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:19 pm

Abranor wrote:Tinderhoof, how about Hit and Expertise? Capping them just helps smooth the CP generation right? I noticed that you have caped Hit and Expertise, but I ran a sim w/ your armory import just to see what your stat weights looked like and I saw that it had stated Mastery = Crit > Hit = Exp = Haste. Is that a personal preference choice?

I guess maybe for heroic progression, misses can sometimes be the difference between a Win and a Loss?


There's a couple reasons why you would cap hit expertise. On single target patchwerk the overall DPS loss is usually rather small (something like 0.08%). However, unlike single target swipe and thrash do not get energy refunds if they are dodged and parried which makes hit/exp capping a clear cut choice anytime you're doing any AoE. In addition, it eases rotational complexity, your ability to target swap (you wouldn't to have your rake dodged/missed as you run away from the target!) as well as increasing consistency.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Leafkiller » Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:52 pm

aggixx wrote:

It would be if we were to commit the script we've been working on into a SimC build, but it's definitely at the point where it would seem (even if it's not the truth in actuality) that is impossible to execute with addon aid. If that wasn't the case I probably would've committed it by now.


Isn't that the case with the checked in script already? Btw, I am assuming you meant "without addon aid" rather than "with addon aid". The one issue we do have right now is that the changes you made for Incarnation caused an issue with HotW profiles so I never incorporated them.

Switching to a disrelated topic, did you ever run any sims comparing a Rake rotation to a frontal Mangle rotation? I can't help but wonder if we should remove Mangle entirely from our bars and simply use Rake when we are standing in front. The one thing you lose are Rip extensions, but as we saw before the Rake nerf, depending on the relative dps of Rake vs. Mangle, that might not matter.

Edit: In addition to Ovale, Droodfocus has recently been upgraded to include features that identify what buffs are on currently running Rips and Rakes.

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby aggixx » Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:04 pm

To a degree, yes. And yes, I meant without not with.

I've thought about that briefly as well but I haven't tried it.
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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Abranor » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:40 am

When I look at my logs tab after I run a sim my screen reads:


Player Abranor attempting to execute action berserking without spell data. Setting action to background.

Player Abranor attempting 'use_item' action with item 'eternal_blossom_grips' which is not currently equipped.

Player Abranor attempting 'use_item' action with item 'eternal_blossom_grips' which is not currently equipped.

Player Abranor attempting to execute action berserking without spell data. Setting action to background.

Player Abranor attempting 'use_item' action with item 'eternal_blossom_grips' which is not currently equipped.

Player Abranor attempting 'use_item' action with item 'eternal_blossom_grips' which is not currently equipped."


I assume the Eternal Blossom Grips message is the check for the 2pc and 4pc bonuses which I don't have currently.

Any idea why am I seeing the message about berserking? I copy and pasted the latest simc script from the Experimental SimC Script thread.

In my results tab I see berserk listed under my buffs section with an up time of 9.61%

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Re: Simulationcraft - Feral rotation discussion

Postby Helistar » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:56 am

The default action script is for Troll (Berserking racial) and Engineer (glove enchant on BiS gloves). If you're neither you should remove the associated action lines.

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